Well you couldn’t have all Referees or ex Referees judging VAR decisions for obvious reasons, so it has to be a panel of those who know/understand the game, with the PGMOL representative presumably ensuring Law has been appropriately applied by those who need some clarification etc. It is often the case that players/Managers say that Referees know Law but don’t understand the game, and it could be said that managers/players understand the game but don’t know the laws. The IKMIP is a mixture of both so seems appropriate to me.
VAR Vote
- Thread starter Gabriel
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Well you couldn’t have all Referees or ex Referees judging VAR decisions for obvious reasons, so it has to be a panel of those who know/understand the game, with the PGMOL representative presumably ensuring Law has been appropriately applied by those who need some clarification etc. It is often the case that players/Managers say that Referees know Law but don’t understand the game, and it could be said that managers/players understand the game but don’t know the laws. The IKMIP is a mixture of both so seems appropriate to me.
Runner Ref
Active Member
So why not have ex-pro's in the VAR booth? If we' re happy to let them sit on panels, have them in the booth.
That is something that some would say is appropriate & some like Keith Hackett would say to have ex Refs, though I think it’s understandable to have current SG1 officials doing it for the sake of some sort of consistency.
Runner Ref
Active Member
If there are 2 words that don't go together, they would be VAR and consistency!
Perhaps, though could also be argued that all games are Refereed differently, depending upon who the Referee is, the circumstances of the game, the playing conditions, type of game etc. As ex player, Manager, Administrator, presenter Jimmy Hill once said, can only be consistent within the game being Refereed & there is much to be said with that statement - even to this day.
Runner Ref
Active Member
You're just trying to defends PGMOL, FA and referees for the sake of it now. Reading through other threads, you appear to not allow a bad word to be said against them. You're allowed to criticise, it's OK.
I am happy to disagree with any official when I believe it’s due and to be constructive with it - for me, criticism is not a word I like to use, because it’s so easy for anyone to do when not in their position when under so much pressure & scrutiny - both on & off the FoP. Michael Oliver’s decision not to initially award a penalty to Arsenal the other week was because he wasn’t in a good position - too close etc, so VAR was connect to intervene with a clear & obvious error and MO was correct to change his initial decision (though I’m aware he doesn’t like to do).
Runner Ref
Active Member
Blimey, you've actually disagreed with a match official. But then you somehow say last night's incident wasn't a C&O error.....
Whilst I can agree consistency can be difficult, it isn't impossible and is something PGMOL at least are shockingly bad at. Just look at handball. They haven't got a clue.
Of course they have a clue with regarding handball, which is why AT & SA were correct not to award a penalty against Ashley Young.
Runner Ref
Active Member
Who says they were correct? Look at Chelsea vs Arsenal earlier in the season. Not too dis-similar incident that onfield referee said no to, but VAR said yes. Luton vs Shefd Utd as another one.
I think you want to create argument. VAR/Anthony Taylor didn’t consider it to be handball. The KMI panel didn’t consider it to be handball either. Of course, there will be plenty especially Forest supporters who thought it was. However, it was subjective as are most decisions/VAR referrals. No one is god and not robots, just let them get on with things. Also, as can be seen over the course of the season, the goal-posts moved with the interpretation of handball and for the 2nd/latter part of the season, there was more latitude/tolerance provided. People may say this shouldn’t happen, but I would say of course it should, so long as everyone (Referees/VAR/AR’s) are singing from the same hymn sheet then everything is relative.
A debate on the subjectivity of C&O as opposed to a debate as to whether a Ref got it right or wrong. Glad VAR has resolved that problem.
Statistics are just a means of lying by means of figures
Vote on VAR thread has derailed. Just become a pointless squabble that typifies where VAR has taken us
Statistics are just a means of lying by means of figures
Vote on VAR thread has derailed. Just become a pointless squabble that typifies where VAR has taken us
But the whole point is, as you have indicated, it is subjective so often it’s not a case of right or wrong. Some people will say right, others will say wrong. Who’s to say. Thats the whole point of the Laws of the Game, the Referees decision is final, based upon what he/she sees from his/her view at the time of the Incident, or with the help of his/her AR’s etc etc
Exactly. This shows what VAR has done. At this point, just agree to disagree, I’m reading 4 pages of arguments at the minute, not 4 pages of debate on what I asked in the OP, which was answered well in the first few posts.
Runner Ref
Active Member
Unless whoever is on VAR randomly disagrees
Though still for the Referee to confirm or reject based upon how strong or weak he/she is at that time. I would like to think he/she well do what he/she believes to be right. And on this note…Unless whoever is on VAR randomly disagrees
And that I think is the point - did the Referee miss a clear and obvious error! I don’t think he did because it took a number of replays to identify it.
I said this before VAR came in and I still feel the same now. People compare it to other sports but they just aren't the same, they all have a much bigger percentage of factual decisions, whereas football has a very high percentage of subjective decisions. We see that enough on here where there's an incident and we don't all agree on the outcome, sometimes it being a 50/50 split. Other sports just don't have that level of subjectivity.
Whatever they do people will complain. The current very high bar means decisions that people view as clearly incorrect are left in place. If they changed that to a very low bar there would be far more pitch side reviews and that would further slow the game down, so people would complain. If they pit it somewhere it in the middle we'd see interventions in some games but then not in others for the same type of incident, and then there would be howls of complaints about inconsistency. If they scrapped VAR altogether people would go back to complaining about referees and ARs making mistakes. There is no easy answer here.
It certainly seems to work much better in UEFA competitions, the decisions are faster and there are far less controversial VAR decisions. I don't believe that is necessarily down to the quality of match officials, as Oliver and Taylor are two of the best in Europe but still suffer with VAR in England. So perhaps Howard Webb needs to sit down with Roberto Rossetti and work out what they are doing differently. I don't expect we will see VAR chaos in the Euros this Summer, just as we didn't see in the previous one and the World Cup, so there must be learnings to be made.
Whatever they do people will complain. The current very high bar means decisions that people view as clearly incorrect are left in place. If they changed that to a very low bar there would be far more pitch side reviews and that would further slow the game down, so people would complain. If they pit it somewhere it in the middle we'd see interventions in some games but then not in others for the same type of incident, and then there would be howls of complaints about inconsistency. If they scrapped VAR altogether people would go back to complaining about referees and ARs making mistakes. There is no easy answer here.
It certainly seems to work much better in UEFA competitions, the decisions are faster and there are far less controversial VAR decisions. I don't believe that is necessarily down to the quality of match officials, as Oliver and Taylor are two of the best in Europe but still suffer with VAR in England. So perhaps Howard Webb needs to sit down with Roberto Rossetti and work out what they are doing differently. I don't expect we will see VAR chaos in the Euros this Summer, just as we didn't see in the previous one and the World Cup, so there must be learnings to be made.
Runner Ref
Active Member
You could say the exact same about the link I provided earlier from the Luton vs Sheff Utd game. Hardly anyone saw it at first as no one appealed.
Yet after a few different angles, VAR got involved. So based on post #78, VAR should not havr intervened