The Ref Stop

What Constitutes A "Foul Throw?"

You said "you know it when you see it" which pretty much means penalise anything that looks ugly.

Only if you infer it that way. But that's called 'putting words in someone's mouth'. Hopefully the above post sufficiently clarifies.
How the hell are the players supposed to ever know if referees still can't nail down this simple Law?

I would hope that referees are getting this right - but then I know there are still referees out there blowing for every shout of "leave it!" so I'm not filled with confidence.

Interestingly enough, another one of those we learned in primary school, probably took into our playing days, and didn't learn the reality of until our first refereeing course. So here's an idea...

Why don't we educate players? It's only a tiny minority of them that have actually read the rules [sic] so how can we expect them to know what's in them unless we tell them? And not in the heat of the game, but before. Take two minutes, book in hand, and say, "look boys, grass roots referees have decided we've had enough of certain shouts and debates and so have undertaken a national initiative to educate players as to what it actually says in the good book." And then explain "leave it" and "the throw-in procedure" and "last man", etcetera. I genuinely think they'd find it enlightening and be pleasantly surprised. Every ref does this and two weeks later the picture changes completely...
The ball must come into the FOP from the point where it left, so as long as he throws it back in so that it enters the FOP at the same point that it left then it does not matter how far back he stands.

Not quite. Law 15 states that the thrower "delivers the ball from the point where it left the field of play." Slight difference. To illustrate: imagine he's standing one yard back (from where the ball left the FOP) and delivers at an acute angle; in this case it may not enter the FOP until it's quite some distance from the point it left. Would you call that a foul throw?
I believe you can only be 0.9 metres behind the line at a throw.

Where does this come from? If Law, I'd love to know. Want to make sure I get it right.
 
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The Ref Stop
Why don't we educate players? It's only a tiny minority of them that have actually read the rules [sic] so how can we expect them to know what's in them unless we tell them? And not in the heat of the game, but before. Take two minutes, book in hand, and say, "look boys, grass roots referees have decided we've had enough of certain shouts and debates and so have undertaken a national initiative to educate players as to what it actually says in the good book." And then explain "leave it" and "the throw-in procedure" and "last man", etcetera. I genuinely think they'd find it enlightening and be pleasantly surprised. Every ref does this and two weeks later the picture changes completely...

More sensible stuff Frank (obviously only in my humble opinion of course). :)

Strange how our resident "experts" seem to have declined to enter this discussion thus far........ :rolleyes: ;) :p

The thread is only 4 days old, has had nearly 800 views and 60+ posts, but only 20 members have elected to contribute to it....... :hmmm:
 
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Whilst I certainly don't qualify as a resident expert (:hmmm:) you have stung me into action :).

I think this is a fantastic thread and shows how even something so allegedly basic is actually a bit of a minefield.

For what it's worth, I'd be in the camp of enforcing the LOTG as they are written .. and therefore allowing many throws that might look ugly but fully satisfy the criteria of Law 15. As long as it's consistently applied throughout the game then tough to take issue with. If a player wants to argue the toss during or after the game then I'd just ask him to tell me why it was a foul throw in his opinion .. and wait for the incoherent ramblings :)
 
For what it's worth, I'd be in the camp of enforcing the LOTG as they are written .. and therefore allowing many throws that might look ugly but fully satisfy the criteria of Law 15. As long as it's consistently applied throughout the game then tough to take issue with. If a player wants to argue the toss during or after the game then I'd just ask him to tell me why it was a foul throw in his opinion .. and wait for the incoherent ramblings :)

Top post Russell. Me too. :)
 
@Michael Byrne 0.9m? I don't care if he stands 40ft away from the FOP runs, hops, skips, cart wheels and back flips his way to the line - so long as it eventually comes from behind the head and over and is released properly ... I'm cool with it (and probably in amazement if that is the case)

@frank_ref - the ball must come from behind the head.

also, I like your idea about a little 'self education' but I don't think it would get the desired effect on a cold sunday morning ... and then what happens when you have a memory lapse and forget to apply the law that you've just so readily explained to them all?
 
@Michael Byrne 0.9m? I don't care if he stands 40ft away from the FOP runs, hops, skips, cart wheels and back flips his way to the line - so long as it eventually comes from behind the head and over and is released properly ... I'm cool with it (and probably in amazement if that is the case

Not delay of game? :P I can hear it now "how long ref??"

Although I do agree with you in principle. :)
 
ahhh im already ahead of you @SM ... ive stopped my watch and re started it as he approaches the last back flip so account for the relevant time lapse ;)
 
For a throw-in, my rule of thumb is "if any part of the ball starts at all behind the midpoint of overtop the head", then it's "behind" enough for me. Both feet on the ground and on or outside the touchline? Good to go.

I personally can't put the ball back any further to get it truly "behind" my head and still hold it with both arms due to a rotator cuff injury I suffered ~20 years ago.

Most throws are to get the ball back into play. Let's not be super pedantic here. Get the ball in play, get the play going. Use the phrase "ugly but legal" a lot. :)
 
@frank_ref I like your idea about a little 'self education' but I don't think it would get the desired effect on a cold sunday morning

Well, knowing the LOTG might help. ;)

Anyway, why not give it a try?
... and then what happens when you have a memory lapse and forget to apply the law that you've just so readily explained to them all?

To be honest, I can't say that's a problem I'm dealing with. Something you want to tell us? ;)
 
@frank_ref - not a memory lapse as such but if you go telling a player the correct procedure for a throw in etc, then someone does it different but you think its fine ... the players will be on your back telling you exactly what a foul throw is, by your own words
 
@frank_ref - not a memory lapse as such but if you go telling a player the correct procedure for a throw in etc, then someone does it different but you think its fine ... the players will be on your back telling you exactly what a foul throw is, by your own words

If someone "does it different from the correct procedure and you think it's fine" I think players have a right to be on your back.
 
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or just do whats been working for the last 100+ years and don't explain laws to them?

they play the game so should know how to play etc ... we are referees not coaches
 
Charlie is right. This thread has illustrated exactly the point that there are individual interpretations.
I personally think it's a complete joke that there are some of us out there just making it up as we go along and thinking we're correct in doing so.
Law 15:
1. Same position as left FOP.
2. Position of feet.
3. Faces FOP.
4. Delivered two-handed from behind and over the head.

That's it. Anything else simply doesn't matter. :cool:
 
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