A U18 girls' player kicked me!
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We either want zero tolerance or not - grey areas, as said, lead to confusion and a greater chance of such events happening.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
I think the "zero tolerance" level is exemplified by the red card mate.
The decision to abandon a football match involving 21 other players should always be dependent on the interpretation of events and the circumstances at the time by the individual referee in question. (IMO). I don't think you can have a prescribed list of "reasons to abandon a match" outside of the usual health and safety remit - which this instance clearly is. Just my opinion though.
RegalRef
Politically Incorrect
deusex
RefChat Addict
Well the one where my book was knocked out of my hand was probably the most extraordinary game I've ever refereed (not for football mind). Originally a dissent caution after conceding in the dying minutes of an u18 cup tie in Sheffield.
The VC red that followed was the teams 2nd of the day, the full back then decides to come and call me a cheat, 3rd red, 2 players manage to pick up dissent second cautions in the fallout from this. 5 off - abandonment.
I do not actually recall what happened to the card slapper, I'd have been content with a 6 match ban tbh.
I'd consider being kicked hard enough to inflict pain a much worse offence
Nope, wouldn't blame anyone who did.
Had he caused me physical pain however I'd have abandoned. To actually inflict pain on somebody sounds like she put a fair bit of force into it.
Were someone to tap me with their foot I prob wouldn't abandon
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I suppose the blanket abandonment is to take the decision from us. Otherwise it could put some refs in the awkward position of thinking was it or wasnt it bad enough to carry on.
I've been lucky enough to only have one incident with cards nearly knocked out my hand. First ever open age red. Off for an elbow to the face. He squared up to me, tried to take the card which I instinctively moved out the way. He would have gone chest to chest with me, but I stepped back as he stepped in. Horrendous experience of refereeing for me. I was extremely inexperienced and done so many things wrong. I should have abandoned then as genuinely was terrified he'd hit me. At the end I also waited outside the changing rooms listening to the home team bad mouth me waiting for my match fee. I should have just left and sorted it after that. Again lessons learnt. It changed my attitude that we're all there to have some fun, that actually some people arent there to just enjoy themselves.
I've been lucky enough to only have one incident with cards nearly knocked out my hand. First ever open age red. Off for an elbow to the face. He squared up to me, tried to take the card which I instinctively moved out the way. He would have gone chest to chest with me, but I stepped back as he stepped in. Horrendous experience of refereeing for me. I was extremely inexperienced and done so many things wrong. I should have abandoned then as genuinely was terrified he'd hit me. At the end I also waited outside the changing rooms listening to the home team bad mouth me waiting for my match fee. I should have just left and sorted it after that. Again lessons learnt. It changed my attitude that we're all there to have some fun, that actually some people arent there to just enjoy themselves.
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
You misunderstand. It's not about making the punishment worse, it's acknowledging that judicial committees often misinterpret the event if abandonment doesn't occur (and, in some areas, abandonment is decreed as mandatory as a result).
And your statement that 'you should only abandon if you are physically or mentally incapable of continuing' is dangerously wrong. You should also misunderstand if you perceive a continued threat to your safety (ie a continued threat to cross that physical boundary). As such, a threat to 'see you in the capark' can certainly constitute such - or a relatively minor assuault but on a match where you're suffering a lot of hostility can also constitute such (not saying that's required to consider abandonment), as you may perceive the first player crossing that boundary could lead to further incidents.
And your statement that 'you should only abandon if you are physically or mentally incapable of continuing' is dangerously wrong. You should also misunderstand if you perceive a continued threat to your safety (ie a continued threat to cross that physical boundary). As such, a threat to 'see you in the capark' can certainly constitute such - or a relatively minor assuault but on a match where you're suffering a lot of hostility can also constitute such (not saying that's required to consider abandonment), as you may perceive the first player crossing that boundary could lead to further incidents.
deusex
RefChat Addict
Couldn't disagree with this more.
A player pushing me in the chest is hardly going to prevent me personally from completing a match.
I abandon so everyone knows how completely unacceptable this kind of behaviour is.
I owe to the 16 year old who might be refereeing his first game next week against said team.
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Raider025
The ref on the opposite side of the pond
Me being a 19 year old ref in the US, I would greatly appreciate that.
Well, if you write a detailed report they'll perhaps appoint an experienced referee for the next game...
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
Would you abandon if one player pushed another in the chest?
SM
The avuncular one
Meow. Saucer of milk friend?
This is no place for that sort of nonsense. Another sly dig of that nature at someone giving an honest opinion/advice and you will no longer be allowed to post in this thread. Thank you.
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Irrelevant
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
Nope...it's still assault and surely we all agree that assault is totally unacceptable?
deusex
RefChat Addict
If you cannot see how far apart assaulting a referee and assaulting an opposition player are then I cannot help you.
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
So let's abandon the match when a player trips an opponent. You're being quite ridiculous, and I know you're intelligent enough to see that. Nobody is appreciating your strawman/facetious approach.
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
Ok...lets cut to the chase......the real reason referees abandon for a minor assault on themselves is because of the lack of trust in the authorities to deal with the case properly.
A player who knocks the cards out of your hand does not deserve the same punishment as the player who breaks your nose with a right hook....but you would abandon in both of those incidents thereby giving them equal status....
Where did our sense of perspective go?
We are punishing players for the failings of the system (and for those referees who cannot write proper reports....let's be honest about it, a large number of charges go unproven because of the low quality of report submitted), because these assaults are not dealt with properly we are upping the ante by taking an extreme stance in the most minor of circumstances.
I will be the first to abandon if I feel my safety is at risk, or I feel unable to continue mentally or physically.....and I encourage every single referee to do the same......however.....if my safety is not at risk, and I am ok to continue....why should 21 other players be disadvantaged because of the actions of 1 idiot?
By not abandoning, I am not letting anyone down, I am not enabling the assaulter to continue their behaviour....they will be dealt with, reports will be submitted....if the CFA then fails to deal with it appropriately they will be the ones letting people down and enabling the behaviour to continue........
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
One reason. Another is that it's mandatory in some areas. Another is that it demonstrates to all present how completely unacceptable it is. Another is that once one player has crossed that line, it may increase the risk of another doing so.
Abandonment isn't a punishment, so it doesn't give them equal states. Just because assault is on different scales it doesn't mean the referee should respond differently. The referee doesn't have that many options at his disposal, unlike the judiciary. So, your conclusion there is fallacious.
They would be even if your safety was disadvantaged.
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
I find myself in the (somewhat unusual!) situation of siding more with @Padfoot on this one. Our main aim should be to facilitate an enjoyable and fair game between the two teams allocated to us .. abandonment should be an extreme last resort and his stated criteria of being either in ongoing jeopardy or physically / mentally incapable of continuing seem reasonable to me. Certainly I'd be against abandoning solely to ensure appropriate 'justice' was meted out by the CFA.
However, the one consideration that does seem worth addressing is the potential impact on future refs of the same teams (an extreme version of 'last week's ref'). Just because one of us is somehow unfazed by e.g. a player grabbing a card out of our hands does not mean that subsequent refs will (or should) feel the same. So having a clear consistent set of guidelines for us all to follow when deciding on abandonment would avoid any misunderstandings or accusations of inconsistency ...
However, the one consideration that does seem worth addressing is the potential impact on future refs of the same teams (an extreme version of 'last week's ref'). Just because one of us is somehow unfazed by e.g. a player grabbing a card out of our hands does not mean that subsequent refs will (or should) feel the same. So having a clear consistent set of guidelines for us all to follow when deciding on abandonment would avoid any misunderstandings or accusations of inconsistency ...
SM
The avuncular one
The problem here is that you are debating black and whites.
There will be a lot of occasions when an abandonment is the only course of action you should take. There are some situations where abandoning would be overly officious, unnecessary and counter productive. There is a whole ocean of situations in the grey area.
There will be a lot of occasions when an abandonment is the only course of action you should take. There are some situations where abandoning would be overly officious, unnecessary and counter productive. There is a whole ocean of situations in the grey area.
From personal experience (as I know every situation can be different) ... I was hit once - on the wrist / hand - very hard - by a player I was preparing to caution ... it was a shock, it hurt and for a short period I was in a bit of a daze ...
For me - it's at this point where I need to make a decision - what @Padfoot is saying ...
... he had calmed down, realised he made a mistake ... I re-started the game
I watched a game on Sunday that was abandoned - same questions:
It isn't black or white (or red or green) ... I've abandoned 3 games in my refereeing career - thankfully (and maybe selfishly) - none were due to threats to me
For me - it's at this point where I need to make a decision - what @Padfoot is saying ...
- how many people are causing the trouble (1)
- who are they causing it to (just me)
- likelihood of further trouble (low risk)
- where are they now (30 yards away)
... he had calmed down, realised he made a mistake ... I re-started the game
I watched a game on Sunday that was abandoned - same questions:
- how many people are causing the trouble (5-8)
- who are the causing it to (they are spectators, on the pitch, involving themselves with u13 players, also shouting aggressively at the referee)
- likelihood of further trouble (high risk)
- where are they now (still on the pitch, coaches are not getting them to budge)
It isn't black or white (or red or green) ... I've abandoned 3 games in my refereeing career - thankfully (and maybe selfishly) - none were due to threats to me
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Out of interest, I once abandoned a Futsal game. A player turned and raised his fist to me after I sent him off (That was in response to him telling me to f*** off, after I cautioned him when he kicked the ball away a moment before a female opponent was about to pick it up. I found that concerning enough!!). I wasn't too shaken up to continue, and there were no other signs of trouble from anybody before then; it was quite out of the blue. So a good candidate for continuing, but I figured that raising the fist is a definite threat against my safety, so even if he was removed that's too far over the line, hence abandonment.
What was interesting is what occurred after. For one, his captain came over later and made a few comments, unfair about punishing the team, etc. I was a bit concerned about his response there, to be honest. But okay.
So, the next week I (stupidly, perhaps) accepted an appointment to the same team. Another player told me where to go, so I showed him where to go. The entire team began abusing me and walked off - and I mean, extreme level of swearing/abuse from the whole team, which continued on for some time while I was talking things over with the other referee. I left the court, and a little while later was talking to a player on the next court when one of the idiots stuck his head in the door and continued screaming abuse at me for a few minutes.
The response from the team and the utter lack of concern or responsibility from the captain over the raising of the fist tells me, in hindsight, that the entire team are a bunch of thungs and that any one of them was more than capable of punching me at any moment without any warning.
At the time of the first abandonment there was no hint of ongoing threat to my safety, and I wasn't too shaken up to continue - but I abandoned anyway. On principle, if you will. It was only later events that really showed just how right I was to make that decision.
Nothing other than food for thought. One of the reasons why I stopped refereeing Futsal really.
What was interesting is what occurred after. For one, his captain came over later and made a few comments, unfair about punishing the team, etc. I was a bit concerned about his response there, to be honest. But okay.
So, the next week I (stupidly, perhaps) accepted an appointment to the same team. Another player told me where to go, so I showed him where to go. The entire team began abusing me and walked off - and I mean, extreme level of swearing/abuse from the whole team, which continued on for some time while I was talking things over with the other referee. I left the court, and a little while later was talking to a player on the next court when one of the idiots stuck his head in the door and continued screaming abuse at me for a few minutes.
The response from the team and the utter lack of concern or responsibility from the captain over the raising of the fist tells me, in hindsight, that the entire team are a bunch of thungs and that any one of them was more than capable of punching me at any moment without any warning.
At the time of the first abandonment there was no hint of ongoing threat to my safety, and I wasn't too shaken up to continue - but I abandoned anyway. On principle, if you will. It was only later events that really showed just how right I was to make that decision.
Nothing other than food for thought. One of the reasons why I stopped refereeing Futsal really.
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
@CapnBloodbeard , devil's advocate ... how about instead, the team all felt you'd significantly over reacted the previous week and caused them to waste their time / money and as such the likelihood of them misbehaving the subsequent week was significantly increased by the abandonment?
Of course, you were the one there and you could see the whites of their eyes ...
Of course, you were the one there and you could see the whites of their eyes ...
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
lol, I knew there would have to be one smart aleck ;-)
The counter to that is that if they were going to respond like that to one thing, there could have been a big problem over anything else.
The counter to that is that if they were going to respond like that to one thing, there could have been a big problem over anything else.
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