A&H

Aerial challenges

R

Richthekeeper

Active Member
I completed my 4th game on Saturday, 3rd v 5th in the league. It was an end to end game with some moments of real inspiration, and 5th completed a smash and grab 4-2 win despite being by far the poorer team overall.

in any case, a discussion i had with the home team manager after the game related to challenges for headers. they felt i had been too lenient in this area of the game, and although i do like to keep the game flowing i also want to try and reflect on my performance.

during the game i had given a couple of free kicks against home number 9 for fouls while going for headers. i explained to home 9 and the away centre back that i was unconcerned about jostling for position while the ball was in flight, but if they jumped unfairly then they would be penalised. i relayed this to the home management during the conversation and they still claimed that i hadn't given enough free kicks for this.

the home management were rightly disappointed at being beaten and this was the only thing they commented on, despite there being a couple of yellow cards, a marginal offside call and a goal disallowed.

does anyone think that:

1. i was wrong/right in my application of the laws?
2. there is anything i could do better?
3. how do you guys deal with these situations?
 
The Referee Store
Managers, coaches, pundits, basically anyone involved with football who isn't a referee, feels the game has become less physical but as soon as one of their players receives the slightest bit of contact they're calling for a card, regardless of what age the players are. I find this is the case at every aerial challenge - the slightest coming together of players is heralded as a push or a shove and it seems no header is ever complete without a shout from the sides about a foul. Anyway, as for your questions Rich:

1. Appears correct. Players will always come into contact with each other if they're trying to get in the best position for a ball due to the fact the ball can only be in one place but both players can't. As long as a player doesn't deliberately push or nudge a player out the way then you can let most of them go.

2. can't really answer without seeing the incidents but just make sure you're in a good position to notice any infringements.

3. If a manager asks a question in a polite, respectful manner at an appropriate time then give them an explanation. They'll never be fully happy with the answer for the simple fact they didn't get the decision their way and no explanation from the ref will change that.

overall, sound alike you handled the challenges and the officials well. Hope this helps :)
 
With aerial challenges you can be sure everyone contesting them is trying to get away with something! I sure did! The trick is to flirt with the line of what is acceptable to the ref, which is established early in the game. As a ref this means setting your stall out early and keeping it consistent.

Try and get a good side on position when the ball is inflight to see any shirt pulling, pushes in the back, holding down or other shenanigans. The call of "in the back ref!" Will haunt the dreams of every ref, regardless of if there is a foul or not!

1) if you are happy this contact did not cross the line and you were consistent, no problem.

2) if you are happy with your positioning, consistency and level of tolerance to fouls, then no.

3) if that is all they moaned about, good job! You sound like you dealt with it well, as long as you can say "I was consistent and gave what I saw as fouls" then there is not more you can do. If they are not happy with that, it's time for "we will have to agree to disagree, now where's the sausage and chips?"
 
Yup, always a difficult one to call, but here are my 'tips' for what they are worth:

All players have a right to the space that they occupy on the field of play so:
1: Did Player A take player B out of his space?
2: Did either player 'travel' into the challenge?

If it's a 'no' on both counts then there probably wasn't a foul - unless it's a kicking or punching offence ;-)

So, to explain '1':
Defender is in position under where he expects the ball to drop. Attacker steps in shoulder to should as ball still in air. Attacker steps sideways again shouldering the defender a little. Defender has now had the space he was occupying taken from by Attacker - foul!

To explain 2: As above, defender is standing under the ball in preparation to control it when it drops. Attacker takes a step or two in as 'run-up' to aid the jump for the ball. Defender takes a standing jump, and attacker jumps into him. If there is contact that aids the attacker then it is a foul.
 
I would disagree with you Matty because what you seem to be implying is that the first person to the spot where the ball is going to land should win it / or a foul. I also have to disagree with instances 1 and 2, what you seem to describe for me is two fair challenges for the ball. I would say that as long as both players are attempting to reach the ball and not take out one another then it would be a fair challenge for me as long as there is nothing dangerous in it.

But that's just my own opinion.
 
Hull ref matty is right, last Feb my old mentor for the academy before they told me I had failed trial run was running the line now this is adults football at level 3 level 4 refereeing it a throw in now white and black stripe fouled but ref or linesman does not give it ball goes out again for another throw now ball is thrown back in hoved up defense clear the ball so ball now in air for bit then comes to ground now as white black stripes are starting to come back on the attack now a blue midfielder goes in two footed and all hell brakes loose so don't forget a minor thing can break into big thing
 
HullRef said:
I would disagree with you Matty because what you seem to be implying is that the first person to the spot where the ball is going to land should win it / or a foul. I also have to disagree with instances 1 and 2, what you seem to describe for me is two fair challenges for the ball. I would say that as long as both players are attempting to reach the ball and not take out one another then it would be a fair challenge for me as long as there is nothing dangerous in it.

But that's just my own opinion.
Click to expand...

So an attacker with his eyes on the ball, runs into a defender and knocks him off balance, controls the ball, turns shoots and scores?

The first person to the spot is the favourite to win it, if the other player can get there and win it without fouling the opponent, then fair enough.

If I see a defender who's read the flight of the ball, has positioned himself to head, chest or kick the ball then that ball is coming down in front of him. If an attacker shoulders him out of the way and heads/chests/kicks the ball, then it's an unfair charge.

If a defender is standing ready to head/chest/kick a ball and an attacker takes two steps and jumps from behind the defender, then he either has to go over him or through him to do so.

If the attacker in either case goes around the defender, and simply gets a header in before it drops on defender's chest, then fair enough.

Or if both players use a standing, vertical jump going for the ball, then it's a fair challenge.

The examples I used above are when the attacker takes the physical space the defender was occupying, which is a foul, or by coming over him. I'm not talking about 'personal' space here.
 
I am starting to understand what you are saying a bit more, and agree that if an attacker just runs in and takes out a defender then it is a free kick, I personally wouldn't give a foul just for them coming shoulder to shoulder because I don't think that there is anything wrong with that unless the attacker charges in dangerously.
As for jumping from behind at a player I agree that that is a fou, especially l if he uses the player to help him (ie. for leverage) but from the sides or I front of the defender I don't see any problem because I'm one of those refs that thinks " well the defender was able to make a 'run-up' if he wanted to" so I don't think you can penalise the attacker for taking a run-up.

Ref Craig I totally agree with you, I had a borderline foul throw in that I didn't give and then the same team went down the pitch and scored, it's the little decisions that make a subtle difference.
 
HullRef said:
.....but from the sides or I front of the defender I don't see any problem because I'm one of those refs that thinks " well the defender was able to make a 'run-up' if he wanted to" so I don't think you can penalise the attacker for taking a run-up.
Click to expand...
In my example, the defender doesn't have to though, even if he can. He's in position already and doesn't need to, an attacker travelling in from the side, even with eyes on the ball, is more likely to commit a foul because he's travelled into the challenge.

There's no hard and fast to this, and it's difficult to visualise because you 'see' the incident differently to me as I write it, but those are the questions I would ask myself to help with the decision:

1: Did Player A take player B out of his space?
2: Did either player 'travel' into the challenge?
 
I know what you mean, it is hard to visualise it but is still don't think that it makes any difference whether any player 'travels' into the challenge, I think that all players have the right to take a running jump to try and win the ball without fear of being penalised. For me I personally don't think that the defender has the benefit of the doubt just because he got to the space where the ball is going to land first.

I'm probably wrong in most people's eyes but I am still going to have to disagree with you on both points because I personally don't think that either would make a difference in my decision because they both seem to be the most logical thing that anyone would do.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one :)
 
OK, let's back track a bit and remind ourselves how this conversation started:

Richthekeeper said:
during the game i had given a couple of free kicks against home number 9 for fouls while going for headers. i explained to home 9 and the away centre back that i was unconcerned about jostling for position while the ball was in flight, but if they jumped unfairly then they would be penalised. i relayed this to the home management during the conversation and they still claimed that i hadn't given enough free kicks for this.
Click to expand...

So, to reiterate, I am not penalising anyone for taking a running jump, but for jumping unfairly into an opponent. I was merely trying to help a less experienced referee recognise some of the indicators that help me come to a decision, not what constitutes a foul.

How fast or far a player travels into a challenge is used to differentiate between fair/careless/reckless/excessive tackles on the ground and in the air.
 
Right I think to prove mine and Marty's point I'm going to show that mass confrontation but watch the whole video
 
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