Citee V Ars

[socal lurker]

We all happily accept that players can gain an advantage through an accidental handball ..

Many don't accept that happily, if at all. Many believe that advantageous hand-ball contact is always an offense. And that belief is bolstered by those of our colleagues who make that call and say "well, I had to call it or he'd get an advantage.."

(In the US that belief got inadvertently bolstered by some guidance that came out. Essentially there was a piece of advice that noted that the advantageous nature of how the ball bounces could be a clue that contact was deliberate. Which is true in some cases. Unfortunately, some understood the guidance to be that it was a substitute for being deliberate rather than one of several clues available to the referee. (In some ways this is similar to arm position mythology that developed, leading to the addition of language in the LOTG that position does not necessarily mean an offence occurred--but it, too, can be a clue to whether the handling was deliberate.))

 

[Ben448844]

Surely the fact that a goal was scored is completely irrelevant. As soon as you begin to travel the path of altering deliberate handball for goals, it'll then stretch to any advantage gained by the ball hitting the hand/arm. Interpretation of an advantage will then be debated and as time goes on the word 'deliberate' will be removed from handball in my opinion. The law will evolve in the same way that offside has evolved, unsportsmanlike behaviour, dangerous play etc. Once the deliberate handball law is altered in any way it will lead to a gradual overhaul of the law. Whether that's a positive thing or not is up for debate.

 

[Sheffields Finest]

Not a lot wrong with it now, its the stupidity of the further interpretations that clouds the water!

 

[Mintyref]

Not a lot wrong with it now, its the stupidity of the further interpretations that clouds the water!

Pretty simples @Sheffields Finest, just delete the interpretations.........

 

[socal lurker]

Once the deliberate handball law is altered in any way it will lead to a gradual overhaul of the law.

I had heard that there was a proposal floating around to drop deliberate entirely and look solely at arm position. Hopefully that was not one of the proposals that anyone at IFAB is seriously considering. "Not handling--only 29 degrees away from his body!"

 

[PinnerPaul]

Interesting that it works in hockey.

ANY contact with the ball by the foot is a free kick, even if whacked at you from point blank range!

 

[es1]

Interesting that it works in hockey.

ANY contact with the ball by the foot is a free kick, even if whacked at you from point blank range!

But in ice hockey it's well understood that if you accidentally kick the puck in the goal stands!

 

[one]

Interesting that it works in hockey.

ANY contact with the ball by the foot is a free kick, even if whacked at you from point blank range!

But if happens in the area, the resulting penalty doesn't result in an 80% chance of scoring a goal. So not as controversial.

If we do it in football it will take a long time before it becomes the accepted norm (what football expects).

 

[bester]

Indirect free kick for all non-deliberate handballs. Direct free kick for deliberate handballs.
Deliberate clearly defined as arm towards ball etc.

 

[es1]

Indirect free kick for all non-deliberate handballs. Direct free kick for deliberate handballs.
Deliberate clearly defined as arm towards ball etc.

I quite like that as an idea. The thought process is no different and solves all issues neatly.

 

[socal lurker]

Indirect free kick for all non-deliberate handballs. Direct free kick for deliberate handballs.
Deliberate clearly defined as arm towards ball etc.

This solves nothing. Still requires the referee to make the same judgment as today--was it deliberate. If it was easy to clearly define deliberate in the context of handling, it would have happened decades ago. And will punish completely innocuous behavior. And referees will chicken out by giving indirects when they should give PKs. It is an idea with surface appeal that doesn't really work.

 

[Ciley Myrus]

This solves nothing. Still requires the referee to make the same judgment as today--was it deliberate. If it was easy to clearly define deliberate in the context of handling, it would have happened decades ago. And will punish completely innocuous behavior. And referees will chicken out by giving indirects when they should give PKs. It is an idea with surface appeal that doesn't really work.

I would def give a pk over an idfk in the box! They are thankless!!

 

[bester]

The majority of referees are already punishing completely innocuous ball to arm contact if a player is perceived to gain an advantage.

For these purposes deliberate eg equals arm moving to ball, or a player standing still with his arms out for no reason.
Normal playing motions don’t get punished with a direct free kick.


May not work at all but it’s worth trialling

 

[Mintyref]

The majority of referees are already punishing completely innocuous ball to arm contact if a player is perceived to gain an advantage.

For these purposes deliberate eg equals ball moving to arm, or a player standing still with his arms out for no reason.
Normal playing motions don’t get punished with a direct free kick.


May not work at all but it’s worth trialling

No it is not. If you do anything, free kick for any contact with the hand/arm goalkeeper in his area excepted....maybe downgrade to idfk?

Wouldn't like it but could live with it.

 

[bester]

No it is not. If you do anything, free kick for any contact with the hand/arm goalkeeper in his area excepted....maybe downgrade to idfk?

Wouldn't like it but could live with it.

Oops, edited.

Make them all indirect could work, you may end up with some very cynical ones inside the penalty area.

 

[Mintyref]

Oops, edited.

Make them all indirect could work, you may end up with some very cynical ones inside the penalty area.

Trade off for the any contact maybe?

 

[socal lurker]

Oops, edited.

Make them all indirect could work, you may end up with some very cynical ones inside the penalty area.

May?!?!?

 

[Sheffields Finest]

The majority of referees are already punishing completely innocuous ball to arm contact if a player is perceived to gain an advantage.

Never ever have I punished a player for this... Advantage is completely irrelevant as we all know if we don't suspect it was deliberately handled.... the interpretations are an ass!!

 

[Mintyref]

Never ever have I punished a player for this... Advantage is completely irrelevant as we all know if we don't suspect it was deliberately handled.... the interpretations are as ass!!

I agree and if we are to ever reconcile all the different opinions on this we need a radical and change to a simple touch it and it's an offence stance.