England v Germany

[santa sangria]

Yes, because a flag up in the right hand is the signal for offside, so could cause confusion.

This feels like finding out I’m adopted, so I am still skeptical. I never thought there’s any confusion. Flag up quick then run is goal. Flag up slowly down is offside.

Are you e.g. CORE trained?

The old LotG diagrams have the goal/no goal flag in the right hand.

It’s ball just over the goal line - CK, GK or goal - all right hand vertical flag first surely…?

 

[RustyRef]

Interesting, but technically the arm up is NOT the signal for OS, but as the first part of the signal, the arm up is really the signal the AR thinks play should stop, and the flag across the field is the signal that the reason is OS—but I get what you mean In terms of expectations, and a subtle signal that it isn’t OS is a nice idea. ive never heard it taught that way in the US.

That isn't actually what the diagrams in law say. The initial vertical flag in right hand indicates offside, the second motion is to indicate near, middle or far.

There isn't a signal indicated for a goal, so it is interpretation and there is no right and wrong.

 

[RustyRef]

This feels like finding out I’m adopted, so I am still skeptical. I never thought there’s any confusion. Flag up quick then run is goal. Flag up slowly down is offside.

Are you e.g. CORE trained?

The old LotG diagrams have the goal/no goal flag in the right hand.

It’s ball just over the goal line - CK, GK or goal - all right hand vertical flag first surely…?

I've seen it cause confusion, especially if the referee is late seeing the flag. Everyone sees the AR and 99.9% times they see them making that signal it is for an offside. That said, I'm far from convinced the ball actually crossed the line in that game so that could have added to the confusion.

I'm not a CORE coach, have been a member of similar groups as a referee and don't recall it ever being mentioned. As you say, there used to be a diagram in law but that hasn't been there for years, so I guess that opens up people to do what they want. Thinking back to pre-match instructions, I don't think I've ever heard a referee say which arm to use, myself included, rather they have just said something like wait until everyone has looked at you before you set off running, and if you aren't already there, get to the corner flag first.

 

[higdawgy]

I had a young inexperienced AR with me in one game and there was a close goal that I thought had crossed the line from a corner, I looked across and he was completely frozen in place on the goal line, I looked at him and he stuck his flag straight up and didn't move.
With no comms on he was desperately mouthing "goal, goal, goal" with a look of panic.
I got the message and awarded a goal, he was embarrassed after the match that he had forgotten what to do, the players didn't complain and we got there without too much fuss.

 

[Big Cat]

But we’re ok with the ‘cutting the grass’ signal for non penalties which I’ve heard in many pre matches? It might be worth considering that these ‘exhaustive pre match’ chats may be a bit long for you liking, but are of benefit to the referee doing them to help them

My point was not so much about pre-match (although I do go on about aspects of that on occasion!), I was stressing that these (ALL) signals should all be defined and we shouldn't be talking about it
It's ONLY signalling a goal FGS

 

[Max2]

Just give *a* signal and a thumbs up, say goal, whatever. Doesn't have to be complicated. The fact the flag's up indicates *something*

 

[socal lurker]

That isn't actually what the diagrams in law say.

sorta kinda . . . But the flag straight up is the signal for any time the AR thinks the R should stop play, so it doesn’t really tell the R that it is for OS rather than a foul until the second signal (fluttering the flag or across the field (though I will concede that while the diagrams suggest the timing is the same for the flag waggle and the drop to signal where for OS, the real world practice is that the waggle comes much sooner).

(and we could get into a debate on whether the far/near signals are archaic and just left over from when the definition of active involvement was much more broad.)

 

[socal lurker]

Just give *a* signal and a thumbs up, say goal, whatever. Doesn't have to be complicated. The fact the flag's up indicates *something*

So I just went back to the Guidance, which I thought had running to position as part of the AR goal routine, but it isn’t actually in there. It says:

Goal – no goal​

When it is clear that the ball has wholly passed over the goal line in the goal, the AR must make eye contact with the referee without giving any additional signal.​

When a goal has been scored but it is not clear whether the ball has passed over the line, the AR must first raise the flag to attract the referee’s attention and then confirm the goal.​

In the US, running up the touchline is definitely taught as an expectation

 

[santa sangria]

I've seen it cause confusion, especially if the referee is late seeing the flag. Everyone sees the AR and 99.9% times they see them making that signal it is for an offside. That said, I'm far from convinced the ball actually crossed the line in that game so that could have added to the confusion.

I'm not a CORE coach, have been a member of similar groups as a referee and don't recall it ever being mentioned. As you say, there used to be a diagram in law but that hasn't been there for years, so I guess that opens up people to do what they want. Thinking back to pre-match instructions, I don't think I've ever heard a referee say which arm to use, myself included, rather they have just said something like wait until everyone has looked at you before you set off running, and if you aren't already there, get to the corner flag first.

Well, respectfully disagree. It’s not up to us to do what we want. There’s a right way to do this as taught by UEFA, the FA and other associations.

I am still perplexed by this thread. I know a couple of UEFA linos and have asked one. I am a mentor and assessor and work with first year ARs so I would like to know to get this right.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

So I just went back to the Guidance, which I thought had running to position as part of the AR goal routine, but it isn’t actually in there. It says:

Goal – no goal​

When it is clear that the ball has wholly passed over the goal line in the goal, the AR must make eye contact with the referee without giving any additional signal.​

When a goal has been scored but it is not clear whether the ball has passed over the line, the AR must first raise the flag to attract the referee’s attention and then confirm the goal.​

In the US, running up the touchline is definitely taught as an expectation

Current IFAB guidance is:
When a goal has been scored and there is no doubt about the decision, the referee and assistant referee must make eye contact and the assistant referee must then move quickly 25–30 metres along the touchline towards the halfway line without raising the flag.

When a goal has been scored but the ball appears still to be in play, the assistant referee must first raise the flag to attract the referee’s attention then continue with the normal goal procedure of running quickly 25–30 metres along the touchline towards the halfway line.

 

[Anubis]

As above, there is no need for individuals to preach pre match on how they would like a ball just over line goal

its printed in the clearest terms possible in the book


if I was Ar and a prematch contained anything different, sorry not sorry, the ref is wasting his breath, I will be using the universal documented method in the book

 

[Big Cat]

As above, there is no need for individuals to preach pre match on how they would like a ball just over line goal

its printed in the clearest terms possible in the book


if I was Ar and a prematch contained anything different, sorry not sorry, the ref is wasting his breath, I will be using the universal documented method in the book

Absolutely
In an ideal world (in which IFAB morphed into a competent organisation), local customs, fashion and personal preference, would not feature in pre-match because we'd Universally know what's expected
WRT to this goal scored / not scored business, why is this discussion even 'a thing'?
Rules..... clearly define them, learn them and apply them. Why does football have to be so awful at this? And don't make them up to shine in pre-match

 

[RustyRef]

Don't think it as simple as is being made out. As @socal lurker has pointed out, in the USA AR's are expected to signal and then run down the line, in England I suspect that would be frowned upon as they want the AR to stay in a credible position for a brief period until everyone has seen them after the whistle has been blown.

It isn't "printed in the clearest possible terms" in the LoTG". For free kicks and offsides it is specified which hand must be used, for goal decisions it isn't. It says that the referee should signal, but it gives no instructions as to which hand should be used or what to do after, and that is probably why local interpretations come in.

I would also say this is extremely rare, I can't remember when I was last called upon to indicate a close ball over the line decision, but I think it was probably over 10 years ago.

 

[socal lurker]

Current IFAB guidance is:
When a goal has been scored and there is no doubt about the decision, the referee and assistant referee must make eye contact and the assistant referee must then move quickly 25–30 metres along the touchline towards the halfway line without raising the flag.

When a goal has been scored but the ball appears still to be in play, the assistant referee must first raise the flag to attract the referee’s attention then continue with the normal goal procedure of running quickly 25–30 metres along the touchline towards the halfway line.

Thanks- what are you quoting from?

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Thanks- what are you quoting from?

IFAB/LOTG/Guidelines for match officials/Positioning and movement

 

[Anubis]

Thanks- what are you quoting from?

Page 200 of my last paper lotg book , 2019

 

[socal lurker]

IFAB/LOTG/Guidelines for match officials/Positioning and movement

Thanks. What I quoted from was from the communications section of the Guidelines. A bit odd they have it in two places.