A&H

Hamilton V Celtic -Handball not Given

AlexF said:
And why not?

What are you actually seeing here?

I'm honestly really curious to know what you're seeing that makes it non-deliberate handling.
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Alex, I've even had another look. At full speed that is never deliberate......if I replay the slow motion replay, I can almost detect what may appear to be a double movement of the arm.....I repeat may appear, not enough to make me want to base a KMI on.
 
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RustyRef said:
This was covered in the Dermot Gallagher weekend review on Sky Sports this morning. It definitely looks much worse from one angle than the other, and Dermot's view was that he was trying to push himself up from the ground rather than intentionally handling the ball.
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Nonsense. He already plants his hand, then dives in front of the ball. Since when do people get up by diving down?:wall:
 
Mintyref said:
Alex, I've even had another look. At full speed that is never deliberate......if I replay the slow motion replay, I can almost detect what may appear to be a double movement of the arm.....I repeat may appear, not enough to make me want to base a KMI on.
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we will never know, but, what do make of the defenders reaction? read his body language. It says (to me), "oh f, what have I done"
Am not using that as a means of awarding a pk btw, am just saying, he knows he has stuck his arm out and blocked a ball with it
the defender fully expected a pk to be given, which, if you have just committed a non deliberate act, you do not expect the same
 
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Some referees are worse than players with justifying spurious hand balls. I expected better on here. Only Minty has the eyes of a sh1t house rat to spot the blatantly obvious!
 
Ciley Myrus said:
Surely what he is trying to do is all good and well, but, what he has succeeded in doing in blocking an opponents attack, illegally, and its this which should be punished.
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It was only illegally if it was intentional. If his arm was there because he was trying to push himself up from the floor that cannot be intentional handling.
 
RustyRef said:
It was only illegally if it was intentional. If his arm was there because he was trying to push himself up from the floor that cannot be intentional handling.
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So do we advise Celtic player to wait a moment till the Hamilton player gets up? Or, tell the Celtic player to lift a cross ball rather than fire in a low ball, as the Hamilton player is still on the ground?
What the Hamilton player is or is not doing, is really up to him, but if we are saying he was pushing himself up from the ground, well, as he is doing this act, he has deliberately handled the ball, I don't feel we can make excuses (which is what we are doing here) for what a player may or may not be trying to do. What next, player on line is trying to fix a hole in the net but instead fingertips the ball over the bar? (extreme as ever I know but you can insert your own more believable scenario)
the Hamilton player can try to get himself up, without stopping the ball with his hand, question, if whilst on the floor the Celtic player falls over the Hamilton player, are we giving a pk? (yes I know the variable is the deliberate for handball rather than a standard foul which we know we are not judging its deliberation on, only it's actual act)
 
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Ciley Myrus said:
So do we advise Celtic player to wait a moment till the Hamilton player gets up? Or, tell the Celtic player to lift a cross ball rather than fire in a low ball, as the Hamilton player is still on the ground?
What the Hamilton player is or is not doing, is really up to him, but if we are saying he was pushing himself up from the ground, well, as he is doing this act, he has deliberately handled the ball, I don't feel we can make excuses (which is what we are doing here) for what a player may or may not be trying to do. What next, player on line is trying to fix a hole in the net but instead fingertips the ball over the bar? (extreme as ever I know but you can insert your own more believable scenario)
the Hamilton player can try to get himself up, without stopping the ball with his hand, question, if whilst on the floor the Celtic player falls over the Hamilton player, are we giving a pk? (yes I know the variable is the deliberate for handball rather than a standard foul which we know we are not judging its deliberation on, only it's actual act)
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And that is why the law needs changing. FIFA will probably say that should be penalised, which is fine, but laws says that the handling has to be deliberate. Dictionary definition of deliberately is "done consciously and intentionally", and the laws of the game define intentional as "a deliberate action (not an accident)". If his hands are there to help him get back up then the ball hitting them was very much an accident.
 
So the defence seems to be "he was using his arm to get up"
I ask: when is the last time you got up by intentionally sticking your arm out instead of down to support you? Nonsense.
Watch the video and realise he already had his arm touching the ground to support him, before he lifted it in front of him.
This is blatant cheating and the player in question knows it.
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Better refs than you and I say you’re wrong JH... you’re entitled to your entrenched opinion though! 😍
 
Leaving aside this example at top flight, cameras, well behaved (ish) players etc

You simply have to award that pk at grass roots. I think time would actually stand still waiting for you to give it, and nobody would raise an eyebrow, I would go as far as to say the defender expected not just a pk but a card !!!!!!

good luck selling a no pk here at grass roots knowing you will never see it back again to try to convince anyone it was accidental.
you "might" get away with it 4 mins in at 0-0 but you will be chased off the park with 4 mins to go at 0-0 !!!!!!
 
I once gave a stick on ‘save’ penalty in a game and got pelters from 4-5 defenders, their own manager asked them at HT who agreed with the penalty and to a man they all said it wasn’t, now, he’d been a player at a decent standard and he told them to a man I was right in awarding it!

We will never win with these and I 100% agree with the Scottish Ninja that you’d get away with most things in the 4th minute but in the 4th minute of extra time you need balls of steel to do certain things! Sadly, I had Made in Sheffield stamped on mine!
 
we don't get the luxury of replaying it to the coach/players in a civilised manner on a big screen and slowing it down to explain what our thought process was.
I don't like the football expects phrase. But, it covers this one nicely I think.
 
Ciley Myrus said:
we don't get the luxury of replaying it to the coach/players in a civilised manner on a big screen and slowing it down to explain what our thought process was.
I don't like the football expects phrase. But, it covers this one nicely I think.
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And that is why it is wrong......if football really does expect then correct the law......quite simple really any hand ball is an offence, solves everything.
 
Ciley Myrus said:
Leaving aside this example at top flight, cameras, well behaved (ish) players etc

You simply have to award that pk at grass roots. I think time would actually stand still waiting for you to give it, and nobody would raise an eyebrow, I would go as far as to say the defender expected not just a pk but a card !!!!!!

good luck selling a no pk here at grass roots knowing you will never see it back again to try to convince anyone it was accidental.
you "might" get away with it 4 mins in at 0-0 but you will be chased off the park with 4 mins to go at 0-0 !!!!!!
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I disagree, I think at grass roots you would get far more grief giving the penalty in something like this than you would not giving it.
 
RustyRef said:
I disagree, I think at grass roots you would get far more grief giving the penalty in something like this than you would not giving it.
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Show that clip to 100 folk on the street and 90 will say pk

The layman is not interested in, he is using his hands to lift himself back up, all they are interested in, is, thats' handball.
 
RustyRef said:
In your opinion. In other's, including an ex-FIFA referee, it isn't. That is why the handball law is a mess that needs sorting out.
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Rusty, I think if the ref gives this penalty, you'd be backing the decision. Just a hunch...
The player's reaction says more than words
 
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