A&H

Junior/Youth Handball... Which He Didnt Know Anything About

Silhouette

Silhouette

Target of Abuse
Level 7 Referee
This was an interesting one.

U15s.

Last defender on the halfway line, getting charged down quickly by the rapid attacker.

Goes to Peter Kay/”Have It” and the where the attacker has jumper (and done a kind of 180 spin, as his back was then to the defender) the ball has got caught between his side and his arm… But backwards.

So he’s practically caught the ball with his elbow and his side.

Its clear, theres no denying it – everyone can see the ball is trapped between his arm and his body (but his arms are relatively down – hence the ball getting wedged)

But once he lands, the ball pops free beautifully towards goal for him to run on to it – uncontested.

I blow for the handball, because its clear and hes gained an advantage from it.

Uproar from the attacking team mums and dads

Applause from the defending team mums and dads.
 
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Silhouette said:
This was an interesting one.

U15s.

Last defender on the halfway line, getting charged down quickly by the rapid attacker.

Goes to Peter Kay/”Have It” and the where the attacker has jumper (and done a kind of 180 spin, as his back was then to the defender) the ball has got caught between his side and his arm… But backwards.

So he’s practically caught the ball with his elbow and his side.

Its clear, theres no denying it – everyone can see the ball is trapped between his arm and his body (but his arms are relatively down – hence the ball getting wedged)

But once he lands, the ball pops free beautifully towards goal for him to run on to it – uncontested.

I blow for the handball, because its clear and hes gained an advantage from it.

Uproar from the attacking team mums and dads

Applause from the defending team mums and dads.
Click to expand...

You were wrong to penalise as unless it was a deliberate act then no offence has been committed.

Next time remember the LOTG and have the courage to referee to it rather than what people 'expect' you to do.
 
Maybe you're right padfoot but until what people see on TV starts to reflect the laws of the game in terms of handball it's difficult
 
You'd have to see it to put it into the proper context for making a decision. It's possible that your decision was correct but the reasoning could be wrong. The handball has to be deliberate and it's not relevant that an advantage has been gained. This was a trap I used to fall into but I find the decision easier to make nowadays.
My opinion is, a player who turns his back and jumps usually needs to use his arms to gain leverage and control his movement. It's a deliberate attempt to block and the arms are an active part of that motion therefore, in my eyes it's deliberate. I might be more sympathetic if the player doesn't turn his back and takes a direct hit but, you'd have to be there to make the correct call.
 
Silhouette said:
This was an interesting one.

U15s.

Last defender on the halfway line, getting charged down quickly by the rapid attacker.

Goes to Peter Kay/”Have It” and the where the attacker has jumper (and done a kind of 180 spin, as his back was then to the defender) the ball has got caught between his side and his arm… But backwards.

So he’s practically caught the ball with his elbow and his side.

Its clear, theres no denying it – everyone can see the ball is trapped between his arm and his body (but his arms are relatively down – hence the ball getting wedged)

But once he lands, the ball pops free beautifully towards goal for him to run on to it – uncontested.

I blow for the handball, because its clear and hes gained an advantage from it.

Uproar from the attacking team mums and dads

Applause from the defending team mums and dads.
Click to expand...

HertsFinest said:
Maybe you're right padfoot but until what people see on TV starts to reflect the laws of the game in terms of handball it's difficult
Click to expand...



So because the top tier are incapable of applying the LOTG correctly, it's ok for the rest of us to follow their poor example?

David Sutton said:
You'd have to see it to put it into the proper context for making a decision. It's possible that your decision was correct but the reasoning could be wrong. The handball has to be deliberate and it's not relevant that an advantage has been gained. This was a trap I used to fall into but I find the decision easier to make nowadays.
My opinion is, a player who turns his back and jumps usually needs to use his arms to gain leverage and control his movement. It's a deliberate attempt to block and the arms are an active part of that motion therefore, in my eyes it's deliberate. I might be more sympathetic if the player doesn't turn his back and takes a direct hit but, you'd have to be there to make the correct call.
Click to expand...

Very very convoluted and tenuous attempt at making a case for deliberate handball.......it has to be a deliberate movement of hand to ball.......raising your arms to jump, expecting to block the ball with your body doesn't cut it. By your own description the arms are naturally used as part of the jumping motion, therefore they are not in an unnatural position.......

The learning point is to referee to the LOTG and stop trying to emulate the poor practices seen on TV......leave that to the players!
 
Not convoluted at all. You make a deliberate jump to block, you use your arms to assist that deliberate movement, the ball hits the arm/hand and it has done so because of the players action which is deliberate. It's a decision made by the player and the player only.
"Ball to hand", "unnatural position" don't come into it IMHO because the law says:-

A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any
of the following three offences:
• holds an opponent
• spits at an opponent
• handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own
penalty area)

And I did explain the need to have some context on the incident.
 
You use your arms when you run......are you suggesting then that a ball which takes a bad bounce and hits a players arm while they are running should be penalised for handball?
The player is deliberately running, therefore deliberately using their arms.........

We can find ridiculous reasons to justify not applying the LOTG proficiently.....doesn't make them right!

.
Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:

  • the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)

  • the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)

  • the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement

  • touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement

  • hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement
Click to expand...

So...ball to hand and position of hand are both very relevant to the offence........
 
Last edited by a moderator:
David Sutton said:
And I did explain the need to have some context on the incident.
Click to expand...

As you're a long-standing, well-know member and I'm an unskilled newbie of no standing or proficiency, I'll go back to my hole whence I came. I never did like marauding black dogs, anyway.
 
For those new to the padfoot experience, he likes to debate the laws of the game. Don't take offence at it @David Sutton

In this instance padfoot is right. However, the problem comes from knowing what a player is actually intending to do. Has he deliberately tried to touch his hand or arm with the ball? Or has he put his offending appendage in a position where he wants the ball to hit it deliberately? Any mind readers in? :D
 
None taken @SM
It felt like arguing with my Dad who's never been wrong in his life. It's family trait.

SM said:
Or has he put his offending appendage in a position where he wants the ball to hit it deliberately?
Click to expand...

Maybe you have expressed it better than I.
 
Silhouette said:
Its clear, theres no denying it – everyone can see the ball is trapped between his arm and his body (but his arms are relatively down – hence the ball getting wedged)

But once he lands, the ball pops free beautifully towards goal for him to run on to it – uncontested.
Click to expand...

My take on this (and yes, YHTBT) is that the initial contact, if you felt that the player wasn't holding his arms out to block the ball, was not deliberate handball but as soon as the arm was in contact with the ball and the player didn't immediately move his arm away it was a deliberate act and therefore should be penalised. From what you have written it sounds as if the player kept control of the ball with his arm until he had landed and so on that basis, the free kick could be justified. As has already been said, whether the player gains an advantage is immaterial; hand-to-ball or ball-to-hand should be considered but are not conclusive in deciding the offence.
 
Don't know if I dare wade in here....

I think I'd be looking for any possible type of infringement here to assist in selling the decision, if not you'd have to resist temptation and play on. A long loud shout of 'not deliberate, play on' as striker runs on would help make the point you had seen it but we're not going to stop play.

The footballing Gods dictate that of course the striker would slot it in to make it worse....
 
From what you've said I'm giving it all day long.

Better to give a dodgy decision than to give a dodgy goal.
 
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