A&H

Keeper gets the ball first?

Tim Punter

Tim Punter

Level 5 referee
Level 5 Referee
Had two games this weekend, and two nearly identical incidents.
Attackers through on goal, keepers comes out, may or may not have got the ball first, (marginal at best, but don’t see the ball changing direction), but completely wipes out the players.
I give penalties for both, as I think both of the challenges were reckless and have wiped out the players, and have stopped promising attacks.
Players obviously argued, and had to red card one today, (friendly as well!).
I don’t think keepers have the right to come out and take out a player. I can only think of incidents if it’s 50/50 and keeper has control of the ball after. Same for ‘I got the ball’ arguments generally.
Trouble is, I am having doubts as you do see this on the TV where the keeper, getting the ball first isn’t a penalty.
Any advice welcome
 
The Referee Store
Really tough to opine without seeing the plays. I think we do give the GK a bit more leeway when they get the ball, recognizing the hazard a GK is taking going face first into someone’s feet. But we don’t give them free shots at attackers. And IM, if they are goi g in with their feet, we don’t evaluate it any differently at all from a field player. You were the ref, in your opinion the challenges were reckless, only your opinion matters, so the PK and caution were correct by the LOTG.
 
socal lurker said:
Really tough to opine without seeing the plays. I think we do give the GK a bit more leeway when they get the ball, recognizing the hazard a GK is taking going face first into someone’s feet. But we don’t give them free shots at attackers. And IM, if they are goi g in with their feet, we don’t evaluate it any differently at all from a field player. You were the ref, in your opinion the challenges were reckless, only your opinion matters, so the PK and caution were correct by the LOTG.
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Great thank you. Something to take on board next week.
 
Why did you have to red card one of the keepers if the challenges were reckless? And you said they may or may not have got the ball, which certainly implies the challenges were going for the ball so can't be DOGSO?
 
RustyRef said:
Why did you have to red card one of the keepers if the challenges were reckless? And you said they may or may not have got the ball, which certainly implies the challenges were going for the ball so can't be DOGSO?
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No sorry, the red card was for abusive language from one of his teammates.
 
Tim Punter said:
Had two games this weekend, and two nearly identical incidents.
Attackers through on goal, keepers comes out, may or may not have got the ball first, (marginal at best, but don’t see the ball changing direction), but completely wipes out the players.
I give penalties for both, as I think both of the challenges were reckless and have wiped out the players, and have stopped promising attacks.
Players obviously argued, and had to red card one today, (friendly as well!).
I don’t think keepers have the right to come out and take out a player. I can only think of incidents if it’s 50/50 and keeper has control of the ball after. Same for ‘I got the ball’ arguments generally.
Trouble is, I am having doubts as you do see this on the TV where the keeper, getting the ball first isn’t a penalty.
Any advice welcome
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Sounds as if there was a genuine attempt to play the ball especially as you said he may of got the ball obviously can’t be sure without seeing but in that case LOTG say yellow not red I believe.
 
Southerner In The North said:
Sounds as if there was a genuine attempt to play the ball especially as you said he may of got the ball obviously can’t be sure without seeing but in that case LOTG say yellow not red I believe.
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So would you still give a penalty if say the keeper got a very slight touch of the ball, but wiped out the player in doing so? Both attackers were
Injured in the process. My current threshold is the same as an outfield player, getting the ball is irrelevant if you take out the player doing so, but not 100% sure now with keepers?
 
Tim Punter said:
So would you still give a penalty if say the keeper got a very slight touch of the ball, but wiped out the player in doing so? Both attackers were
Injured in the process. My current threshold is the same as an outfield player, getting the ball is irrelevant if you take out the player doing so, but not 100% sure now with keepers?
Click to expand...

Hard to say without seeing particular plays. As you describe it, probably a PK. The real question is whether the GK took out the attacker (foul), or the attacker ran into the GK (either nothing or a foul on the attacker). Evaluating that depends in part on whether the attacker had a viable chance at the ball or not. Perhaps colored by the fact I was keeper, I'm giving a GK a bit more leniency of the keeper is going in hands/face first and is able to make a play on the ball, but that doesn't mean he can clean out the attacker. (As I believe I said above, if he is making a play with his feet like a full back would, I'm treating the play exactly the same as a fullback making the tackle.) One thing to consider is whether the GK was making a play on the ball that resulted in contact or was acting to clear out the attacker and happened to touch the ball; the latter is clearly a foul, the former might or might not be. Also consider where the foul bar has been in the game--you certainly don't want a heightened foul bar on a GK putting himself at risk. And beware the attacker--if they can't get the ball, they are very likely to make the contact look worse, and may initiate the contact. GKs are vulnerable, so don't let the attacker initiate unnecessary contact with the GK trying to get bailed out by a foul call. With all that, at the end of the day it is going to be a judgment call based on having a feel for the game. These aren't easy calls, but they get easier with more experience.
 
socal lurker said:
Hard to say without seeing particular plays. As you describe it, probably a PK. The real question is whether the GK took out the attacker (foul), or the attacker ran into the GK (either nothing or a foul on the attacker). Evaluating that depends in part on whether the attacker had a viable chance at the ball or not. Perhaps colored by the fact I was keeper, I'm giving a GK a bit more leniency of the keeper is going in hands/face first and is able to make a play on the ball, but that doesn't mean he can clean out the attacker. (As I believe I said above, if he is making a play with his feet like a full back would, I'm treating the play exactly the same as a fullback making the tackle.) One thing to consider is whether the GK was making a play on the ball that resulted in contact or was acting to clear out the attacker and happened to touch the ball; the latter is clearly a foul, the former might or might not be. Also consider where the foul bar has been in the game--you certainly don't want a heightened foul bar on a GK putting himself at risk. And beware the attacker--if they can't get the ball, they are very likely to make the contact look worse, and may initiate the contact. GKs are vulnerable, so don't let the attacker initiate unnecessary contact with the GK trying to get bailed out by a foul call. With all that, at the end of the day it is going to be a judgment call based on having a feel for the game. These aren't easy calls, but they get easier with more experience.
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Great advice and thanks again. I think next time making sure I keep an eye on where the ball has gone, i.e. has the keeper made a good clearance before the contact, which is probably leaning more towards a good clearance and not a penalty. The other thing I wish I could have changed was I didn't angle my run before contact, (the first two games of the season, was happy just keeping up!) In both incidents, I was in line with the challenge from behind about 15/20yrds, which may have made it look worse. However, both managers were happy with the explanation of the penalties, as I said they had no right to wipe out the players, and still think they were the right calls (just). but again really appreciate the feedback, and this is why RefChat is such a good resource.
 
Tim Punter said:
So would you still give a penalty if say the keeper got a very slight touch of the ball, but wiped out the player in doing so? Both attackers were
Injured in the process. My current threshold is the same as an outfield player, getting the ball is irrelevant if you take out the player doing so, but not 100% sure now with keepers?
Click to expand...
Penalty yes but by LOTG probably wouldn’t go red card
 
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