A&H

Manchester City v West Ham

just for my understanding of the process then...

AR flags for offside, ref blows before a foul takes place obviously results in a IFK for offside

AR flags for offside, before the ref has a chance to blow a foul takes place. whats the restart here? can VAR review it to determine if it's a pen? if not then that seems like a pretty huge flaw in the process
 
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es1 said:
just for my understanding of the process then...

AR flags for offside, ref blows before a foul takes place obviously results in a IFK for offside

AR flags for offside, before the ref has a chance to blow a foul takes place. whats the restart here? can VAR review it to determine if it's a pen? if not then that seems like a pretty huge flaw in the process
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My understanding is that the offside comes first, but normally when you see this happen play is stopped for the offside.

How long after the assistant raised the flag did the foul occur? And how long was the gap between the flag and the referee playing advantage?
 
Not a huge flaw but a flaw nonetheless and likely hood of happening is very slim. This is basically two incorrect calls in a row of which the first one you must play advantage and the second one must be a KMI.

Equivalant of this without an offside would be referee somehow sees a non-existing foul he plays advantage for then immediately after there is a red card challenge by an opponent ref sees as no foul. What should the VAR do?
 
zarathustra said:
My understanding is that the offside comes first, but normally when you see this happen play is stopped for the offside.

How long after the assistant raised the flag did the foul occur? And how long was the gap between the flag and the referee playing advantage?
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practically at the same time
 
one said:
Not a huge flaw but a flaw nonetheless and likely hood of happening is very slim. This is basically two incorrect calls in a row of which the first one you must play advantage and the second one must be a KMI.

Equivalant of this without an offside would be referee somehow sees a non-existing foul he plays advantage for then immediately after there is a red card challenge by an opponent ref sees as no foul. What should the VAR do?
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seems pretty simple, red card the red card worthy challenge
 
es1 said:
seems pretty simple, red card the red card worthy challenge
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Not that some when you bring clear an obvious into it. What if the second challenge was a normal foul as in the OP case. Nothing is simple with VAR.
 
one said:
Not that some when you bring clear an obvious into it. What if the second challenge was a normal foul as in the OP case. Nothing is simple with VAR.
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if the 2nd challenge isn't a clear and obvious red then VAR wont give it
 
es1 said:
just for my understanding of the process then...

AR flags for offside, ref blows before a foul takes place obviously results in a IFK for offside

AR flags for offside, before the ref has a chance to blow a foul takes place. whats the restart here? can VAR review it to determine if it's a pen? if not then that seems like a pretty huge flaw in the process
Click to expand...

If we look at it without VAR for a second ... The offside is given then the foul happens. In that circumstance (unless something serious) it would always be offside as that happened first. In effect, the foul never actually happened within playing time.

So if we add VAR to that scenario, by it's own protocol there's nothing review as the foul didn't happen during playing time. Offside reviews happen when a goal is scored which it wasn't, or if the foul happened first to check if the player was onside before being fouled.
 
one said:
Not a huge flaw but a flaw nonetheless and likely hood of happening is very slim. This is basically two incorrect calls in a row of which the first one you must play advantage and the second one must be a KMI.

Equivalant of this without an offside would be referee somehow sees a non-existing foul he plays advantage for then immediately after there is a red card challenge by an opponent ref sees as no foul. What should the VAR do?
Click to expand...
It's a huge flaw if the referee by playing advantage on a non-existent offside can stop VAR from reviewing the foul that would have meant a penalty and RC.
 
bloovee said:
It's a huge flaw if the referee by playing advantage on a non-existent offside can stop VAR from reviewing the foul that would have meant a penalty and RC.
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But the referee didn't know it was non-existent, the AR flagged and the referee went with them.
 
es1 said:
i dont think the question has been answered at all

the flag was raised for offside

aguero was then fouled

ball ran through to the keeper and ref played on/advantage acknowledging the flag.

you could say it's not a clear and obvious error but i'd disagree, it's a clear foul on the refs blindside

another one from the game which deserves a mention on a completely separate subject...

later in the 2nd half city player has a cross shot and it looks to go out for a goal kick but it spins back into play and rolls towards the corner flag.

ball boy picks it up.

the interference takes place after the ball he clearly left the area (by a good 5 yards)

surely the correct restart is a drop ball to city (as we were technically in possession when the interference took place) and certainly not a drop ball to the keeper inside the penalty area?
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Don't forget the offside against a West Ham forward who had run into his own half to play the ball. City tried to take the IDFK from the correct position and ref made them take it back to the offside position the player had come from (and the AR was still pointing).
 
QuaverRef said:
If we look at it without VAR for a second ... The offside is given then the foul happens. In that circumstance (unless something serious) it would always be offside as that happened first. In effect, the foul never actually happened within playing time.

So if we add VAR to that scenario, by it's own protocol there's nothing review as the foul didn't happen during playing time. Offside reviews happen when a goal is scored which it wasn't, or if the foul happened first to check if the player was onside before being fouled.
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i get what you mean, but we have VAR and surely it's there to solve exactly this sort of issue? and in this scenario the ref played on knowing there was an offside.

we've seen this year ARs flag for offside and the ref play on and then blow up when the play went dead (newcastle goal v sheff united), this is a very similar scenario. there's 2 clear errors (if you assume it's a foul and therefore a pen), use VAR to get it right.
 
es1 said:
i get what you mean, but we have VAR and surely it's there to solve exactly this sort of issue? and in this scenario the ref played on knowing there was an offside.

we've seen this year ARs flag for offside and the ref play on and then blow up when the play went dead (newcastle goal v sheff united), this is a very similar scenario. there's 2 clear errors (if you assume it's a foul and therefore a pen), use VAR to get it right.
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I completely agree, it's where their own criteria falls down. I think unfortunately things have to got wrong before issues are spotted as with all walks of life, you can't account for all scenarios but you'd hope off the back of this they would reassess how they view similar incidents in the future.
 
QuaverRef said:
I completely agree, it's where their own criteria falls down. I think unfortunately things have to got wrong before issues are spotted as with all walks of life, you can't account for all scenarios but you'd hope off the back of this they would reassess how they view similar incidents in the future.
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i'm just staggered this sort of scenario wasn't foreseen.
 
I think the problem here is that the referee has to make a decision, they can't leave it and let VAR make the decision for them.

If the referee had thought "That offside looks tight" and waved the flag down then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The referee went with the incorrect flag and this then dictates what VAR can/can't review
 
es1 said:
another one from the game which deserves a mention on a completely separate subject...

later in the 2nd half city player has a cross shot and it looks to go out for a goal kick but it spins back into play and rolls towards the corner flag.

ball boy picks it up.

the interference takes place after the ball he clearly left the area (by a good 5 yards)

surely the correct restart is a drop ball to city (as we were technically in possession when the interference took place) and certainly not a drop ball to the keeper inside the penalty area?
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The last touch was by a City player but it was inside the penalty area. Therefore the restart of drop ball to the goalkeeper was correct
 
zarathustra said:
I think the problem here is that the referee has to make a decision, they can't leave it and let VAR make the decision for them.

If the referee had thought "That offside looks tight" and waved the flag down then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The referee went with the incorrect flag and this then dictates what VAR can/can't review
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i appreciate the ref must make a decision and the AR makes that for him by sticking the flag up. i just dont see why, during the period between the flag going up and the ref noticing VAR cant get involved if a clear and obvious foul occurs
 
ASM said:
The last touch was by a City player but it was inside the penalty area. Therefore the restart of drop ball to the goalkeeper was correct
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i'm not convinced so i'm looking through the laws...

the ball boy is an outside agent so a drop ball is clearly the correct restart...

oh you're spot on, i apologise!

The ball is dropped for the defending team goalkeeper in their penalty area if, when play was stopped:
• the ball was in the penalty area or
• the last touch of the ball was in the penalty area

clearly the 2nd bullet applies in this instance
 
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