A&H

Off the ball incidents

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Oli

New Member
Level 7 Referee
I was running the line yesterday in an open age game. Yellows where attacking down the right wing (far side from me) and three or four players started a scuffle directly in front of me and one yellow 'kicked' the opposing defender (it was more of a poke, there was no real malice)
I called the ref over immediately to tell him and said I thought it was a caution. He cautioned the player.
There was no doubt in my mind that the kick was nothing more than reckless but should it have been a red card? From my interpretation of the LOTG it's a yellow but I have never seen a ref in pro football do anything but send off the player. Was I right?
 
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Advice the referee what you saw and he can decide whether it's a caution or a red, unless he's specifically asked for a recommendation either at the time or in his prematch. Deliberately kicking someone off the ball is nearly always excessive force in my opinion.
 
I discussed this in one of my Match Incidents posts recently. My feeling is the LOTG is straightforward, if it is what you consider to be only Reckless then a caution is fine.

My issue was the same as yours - in high-profile matches (e.g. Beckham in 1998), even a weedy waft of the boot is treated as Excessive Force and a red card. I think you can argue either way so in your case I would suggest you got it right as you could justify it as only Reckless.

I still find it confusing...
 
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Not that i am saying you are wrong as you were there and you gave what you saw. (I'm sure others will say i am wrong)
I'm not sure that i can justify a kick as being reckless, regardless how hard he kicked him.
More fool the player for with the pansy kick, it's a soft red, but in my opinion a red for VC.
Should have got his monies worth and did it properly.
 
The law clearly states that 'striking or attempting to strike' is an offence punishable by dismissal. No matter how petty looking any kick out MUST be punished by dismissal. Failure to do so allows others to think they can get away with kicking players.
 
bester said:
Advice the referee what you saw and he can decide whether it's a caution or a red, unless he's specifically asked for a recommendation either at the time or in his prematch. Deliberately kicking someone off the ball is nearly always excessive force in my opinion.
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Deliberately kicking someone is violent conduct !
 
Declan said:
The law clearly states that 'striking or attempting to strike' is an offence punishable by dismissal. No matter how petty looking any kick out MUST be punished by dismissal. Failure to do so allows others to think they can get away with kicking players.
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No it doesn't.

The offence here is kick or attempt to kick, and can be judged to be careless, reckless or excessive force. Only excessive force must be sent off.

The debate is whether the act of kicking can ever be considered reckless, again I a not sure but according to the laws it can.
 
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Monotone Whistle said:
No it doesn't.

The offence here is kick or attempt to kick, and can be judged to be careless, reckless or excessive force. Only excessive force must be sent off.

The debate is whether the act of kicking can ever be considered reckless, again I a not sure but according to the laws it can.[/QUOTE

Sorry, anyone kicking someone off the ball in my games will be off for violent conduct !
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svenny76 said:
Not that i am saying you are wrong as you were there and you gave what you saw. (I'm sure others will say i am wrong)
I'm not sure that i can justify a kick as being reckless, regardless how hard he kicked him.
More fool the player for with the pansy kick, it's a soft red, but in my opinion a red for VC.
Should have got his monies worth and did it properly.
Click to expand...
Might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb - love it
 
I have had a few incidents when a player has tapped his opponent with his instep. sending offence would be violent conduct, but definition of violent is using physical force to hurt, damage or kill. As I deemed these to be petulant acts that would have been barely felt by the opponent I could not justify red card.
 
Monotone Whistle said:
No it doesn't.

The offence here is kick or attempt to kick, and can be judged to be careless, reckless or excessive force. Only excessive force must be sent off.

The debate is whether the act of kicking can ever be considered reckless, again I a not sure but according to the laws it can.
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Right you are. I could have sworn that was the wording. But may I also suggest that as recommended in the guidance section that actions of this nature generally lead to mass confrontations so in that case I would still argue a kick of any nature is violent conduct.
 
That's my point. Clearly the instruction is to send off any form of kick but this contradicts the wording in the Laws.

I've had two such incidents this season, both wer just wafts of the foot at an opponent after a tackle, both were very minor but did make contact with the opponent. I cautioned both.

Maybe the Beckham example (or the Ramirez one from this season's Hull v Spurs) were punished as reds becuase they were off the ball?
 
The point is what constitutes excessive force. We accept a certain level of contact when playing for the ball that we would not accept when off the ball. If the level of force is above what we would accept we apply the necessary sanctions. If Beckhams namby-pamby kick had been as part of a play for the ball it is unlikely any sanction would have taken place. However, nobody who is on the field of play and not challenging for the ball, expects or accept being kicked and therefore such a kick is done with excessive force.
 
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Some of you seem to be getting confused between foul play and violent conduct. Violent conduct is act committed off the ball and is deemed to be excessive force or brutality. There is nothing in there about careless, reckless or excessive force.

There is absolutely no justification for kicking out at some one off the ball, none. Regardless of whether he does it like a whimpering puppy or a meat head body builder. You wouldn't ignore someone throwing a punch so why ignore a kick.
 
If it's not using excessive force or endangering the safety of an opponent then it isn't a red card.

Matty, violent conduct while the ball is in play involves a foul. Kicking an opponent, as a foul, is CRUEF. Violent conduct just means it's off-the-ball. But CRUEF is very much a part of it, and being off-the-ball doesn't automatically make it a red.
 
Again you are blurring the lines here. If the ball is in play at the other end of the pitch and the keeper kicks the CF are going to think of it as a foul are you? No it's violent conduct.

The fact that the ball is in play is irrelevant, other than how you are going to restart play. You can't see someone kick, throw a punch and then decide it was reckless. The only one where there is scope is probably pushing someone.

If an opponent kicks a guy when apparently attempting to tackle him then you can look at it as a foul because he may have been trying to win the ball and just been reckless or even SFP. There is even scope for VC but much more likely to go down as SFP. Off the ball is anything not challenging for the ball.

I'm sure in reality we're both singing off the same song sheet here so to speak and it's just our putting it into text here that is causing the confusion.
 
matty, I'm not blurring the lines, you seem a bit mixed up on what a foul is.

A penal foul occurs when a player commits one of the ten penal offences on the field while the ball is in play. That's it. Page 117 of the LOTG has that definition.
So in your case, when the ball is at the far end of the pitch and the keeper decks the striker 90 yards away from play, that's a foul.

In fact, if you read Law 12, proximity to the ball isn't even mentioned. At all.

So, if the aforementioned keeper kicks the striker, we then decide if it's CRUEF. If Careless, then PK, and so forth. If it's Excessive Force, we then decide if it's SFP or VC - though that's not important until we're actually writing the report. That is what highlights if it was 'on the ball' or not. But until then, while the fact that it was off-the-ball naturally makes it worse, it doesn't automatically upgrade to a red card.

in the scenario I described it's certainly possible in the LOTG to award a PK against that keeper for carelessly kicking the opponent.

p128 of the LOTG specifically states how to handle off-the-ball VC when the ball is in play. And those instructions are to handle the restart like any other foul.

A foul has nothing to do with whether the ball is being challenged. Deciding if the foul constitutes SFP or VC does.

Hope that helps
 
I am at a loss as to how you can somehow believe a player can carelessly strike an opponent. There is no measurement bar for striking an opponent off the ball. As I have said the only one that carries any kind of barometer is pushing an opponent. You can quote definitions from the book all you want, yes VC is a foul but you can't treat it the same as a tackle. The simple question is has the opponent struck or attempted to strike another player/official etc, if the answer is yes then it's direct free kick or pen and red card, simple. I hope that helps.
 
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