A&H

Promotion?

zarathustra said:
Positioning is always a good one, I know someone who got marked down because he didn't stand on the goal line at a corner, next game he did that and got marked down for it.
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Sounds silly that.

I had my first FAW assessment a while back since I'm going for my Welsh Badge this season. That was the first assessment I've had that asked me to change from the goal line position for corners. I was not marked down for taking up those positions. I also had a positioning query for free-kicks, again, wasn't marked down for it.

I think marking down for those positioning issues seems petty and should only be happening if the positioning is what led to a KMI error. If I were to get marked down for following a previous assessment's advice, I would honestly raise it with the RDO (whoever is in charge of assessments in England) so that they could unify the advice being given for the level and stop such issues occurring in the future.
 
The Referee Store
They all make it up as they go along to justify their existence! We all critique EPL refs ever week, it’s all about opinions! My opinion is just that, theirs is theirs too!
 
Sheffields Finest said:
They all make it up as they go along to justify their existence! We all critique EPL refs ever week, it’s all about opinions! My opinion is just that, theirs is theirs too!
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My impression from watching non-league over the years, is that (refereeing) individuality has been lost. Higher up the progression chain, only one type of robotic, predictable and obedient referee is accepted. Therefore, the teachings of all observers (at that high level) must hardly vary at all
Big differences internationally tho... HB in particular
 
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I don't think you are seeing a forced lack of "individuality", what you are seeing is the consistency that is easier to achieve when you have a smaller pool of match officials and observers.

What you get at grass roots isn't referees being "individuals", it is referees doing what they think is right (for the most part). But what each referee thinks is right can vary wildly,especially at grass roots where there are no observations or tests on the laws of the game unless you are on the promotion scheme.
 
zarathustra said:
I don't think you are seeing a forced lack of "individuality", what you are seeing is the consistency that is easier to achieve when you have a smaller pool of match officials and observers.

What you get at grass roots isn't referees being "individuals", it is referees doing what they think is right (for the most part). But what each referee thinks is right can vary wildly,especially at grass roots where there are no observations or tests on the laws of the game unless you are on the promotion scheme.
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At higher levels, I'd like to sense a little 'freedom of expression'. Instead I detect unnatural movements and actions, doing what one has been told rather than following instinct
 
Big Cat said:
At higher levels, I'd like to sense a little 'freedom of expression'. Instead I detect unnatural movements and actions, doing what one has been told rather than following instinct
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Out of interest what sort of unnatural movements and actions do you detect?

Because I can't say it's something I've ever noticed.
 
zarathustra said:
Out of interest what sort of unnatural movements and actions do you detect?

Because I can't say it's something I've ever noticed.
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Subtlety, intuition, perception... all a bit tricky for a forum
I take your point about Grass Roots however. Referees ad-libbing left, right & centre; with observers similarly inclined
 
I think I get what @Big Cat means. I've watched a fair bit of National League football this season and every referee I've seen seems like a clone of the last one. Couldn't put my finger on why, but knowing none of them, I couldn't distinguish any one of them from the other dozen or so I've seen.

(Edit: They've all been very good, just completely interchangeable)
 
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Grayson said:
I think I get what @Big Cat means. I've watched a fair bit of National League football this season and every referee I've seen seems like a clone of the last one. Couldn't put my finger on why, but knowing none of them, I couldn't distinguish any one of them from the other dozen or so I've seen.
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At the same time, consistency would ordinarily be something to aim for. But there's something that troubles me, watching referees throughout the pyramid (except the bottom, where other things are more worrying... like a ref who told me this week, "that I should never have to sin bin... two warnings followed by a USB caution for any third strike", apparently :))
 
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There is undoubtedly a drive to getting referees officiating the same way, and that (like VAR that they now don't want either) has come from clubs. They want consistency in decisions, and you only get consistency if every referee behaves the same way and referees the game in the same way. That isn't exactly rocket science.

In terms of observations at lower levels, I have always said that you need to analyse what you are told and decide whether it should be applied. If one observer gives you a specific piece of development advice you should think about it, if a second one tells you the same development advice it then carries more weight and you should think about it more, if a third then comes along and tells you the same you almost certainly have a fault that needs to be addressed.
 
RustyRef said:
There is undoubtedly a drive to getting referees officiating the same way, and that (like VAR that they now don't want either) has come from clubs. They want consistency in decisions, and you only get consistency if every referee behaves the same way and referees the game in the same way. That isn't exactly rocket science.

In terms of observations at lower levels, I have always said that you need to analyse what you are told and decide whether it should be applied. If one observer gives you a specific piece of development advice you should think about it, if a second one tells you the same development advice it then carries more weight and you should think about it more, if a third then comes along and tells you the same you almost certainly have a fault that needs to be addressed.
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To add to @RustyRef the best observers will only penalise you if your error had an impact. They will highlight where your actions created a higher risk of missing something or making an error, but shouldn't penalise your mark.

The depth of analysis of games at the top of the game which is simply not possible at lower level contributes to the cloning effect. It allows for contributory factors for errors to be identified and advice given to eliminate them. This advice then rolls down. This is the reason why referees appear to be clones of each other as each level aspires to emulate the level above.
 
Interesting. The mantra I always hear is that the best referees are the invisible ones. The worst ones are those that make the game all about themselves.
Maybe the whole 'clone' thing is to with a view to make refs invisible.
 
RobOda said:
What's Australia's grade system? Four tiers like in Wales?
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4 Tiers. summarising very briefly (and possibly wrongly here), but

Level 4 : Community level Youth games
Level 3 : Community level Senior games
Level 2 : Elite level up to the penultimate league within State/Federation (Understanding that would be National Premier League 2 in every state). Also assuming Level 2 Theory means you can AR at this level.
Level 1 : A-League and NPL level with State/Federation (Again, assuming Level 1 Theory allows you to AR at these levels)
 
afronaut81 said:
Interesting. The mantra I always hear is that the best referees are the invisible ones. The worst ones are those that make the game all about themselves.
Maybe the whole 'clone' thing is to with a view to make refs invisible.
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Hmm... at higher levels players want and need referees that conmunicate well, at the right times, with some personality and authority.

I think the “invisible” idea is a media/highlights thing.

The best referees only interfere when necessary but they communicate constantly.
 
Coincidentally (500 EPL games today), I'm not sure Mike Dean's face would fit throughout today's promotion scheme. Arguably, he and Marriner are the only two EPL whistle blowers with style
 
Big Cat said:
Coincidentally (500 EPL games today), I'm not sure Mike Dean's face would fit throughout today's promotion scheme. Arguably, he and Marriner are the only two EPL whistle blowers with style
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Ironically I had an eye test today, perfect long sight, failing short sight, bat ears, thick skin.... I'd make a decent ref with that combination!! ;) MD & MO are miles in front of the other SG!!
 
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