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Junior/Youth Pushing a player with force off the ball

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SydTheAussieRef

SydTheAussieRef

Level 4 Ref (youth). Just starting out.
Hi guys. Long time reader first time poster. Just did the first half of my level 4 referee course (youth - lowest level) here in Australia. Anyway was watching an under 13 match (top divison in my city) and saw the following incident.

Blue player no 7, dispossessed orange player no 8, and quicky passed the ball. Orange 8 wasn't too happy and quite forcefully shoved blue player in the back with both hands. This was not in challenging for the ball.

My thoughts if I saw it (ref didn't) would be violent conduct. But it wasn't very violent. But not on in my opinion.

P.s there are no 'youth rules' full LOTG apply etc.

Thoughts?

Thanks.
 
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The force used does matter, but what you described sounds like it could be considered as VC If it was forceful enough.
 
Hi Syd! I was formerly based on the Central Coast myself, but now I'm down in Melbourne. Always good to have more aussies on here!

Out of interest, how did the referee respond?

I'm afraid mikedn has perhaps taken an overly simplistic answer here, one which may be a little misleading.
A number of things will be taken into consideration with any foul. Force used, necessity in playing the ball, how 'on or off the ball' it was, where on the opponent the foul was, and a number of other things. So yes, the force used absolutely matters.

But those facts don't necessarily mean a push is going to be considered violent conduct. In this scenario, a push is far more likely to be a caution. Off the ball, blatant offence, some force/aggression. What crosses the line from yellow to red is the amount of force and aggression used. I'd argue that pushing in the back is worse than in the front as the player can't defend himself and is more likely to fall over. Therefore, less force/aggression will be needed to escalate it to a yellow or red card.
If it's a forceful shove that knocks the player over then I'd be very likely to consider that a red card. Some referees will try to tell you that you should be able to control a match at this age without cards, or some such nonsense. Sure, you could probably still control the match with just a yellow card - or even no card at all - but that doesn't mean the player's actions don't deserve that card. I wouldn't have a problem sending off a player at this age for violent conduct for pushing - I'd have a problem with a referee who didn't if it was clearly warranted!

Ultimately there is a bit of a grey area - precisely what changes it from a yellow card to a red card? The best answer I can give is the level of force and aggression used. How much was the opponent affected? How much aggression was shown on the player's face? How far did he run to commi the act? Was it more of a 'push' (placing hands on the back then pushing) or a 'shove' (where the force tends to start even before the contact, so there is some impact)?
 
Forcefully shoved can mean many things. You're making an assumption. I would read your comment to say that any push (given that push and shove are seen as fairly interchangeable) with any amount of force at all is a red card. This is not true. We need to be careful how we respond to ensure we're not unintentionally posting something misleading.
 
Thanks for the mega long post @CapnBloodbeard great info. I think of it more as a yellow now. It was definitely not a follow through type push but it was a shove (wind up type) either. So if Yellow what sanction is it? Unsporting?
 
Stick by my comment... methinks CapnBloodbeard gets too complicated and long winded... forceful shove in the back, on or off ball violent conduct = ired card.... if not forceful then yellow for USB.... simples.
 
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mikedn said:
Stick by my comment... methinks CapnBloodbeard gets too complicated and long winded... forceful shove in the back, on or off ball violent conduct = ired card.... if not forceful then yellow for USB.... simples.
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What's forceful though? Your definition if forceful may easily be quite different to somebody else's. Categorical statements from an ambiguous, or potentially misused term, are very dangerous. I would argue that an off-the-ball push in the back also won't necessarily be a caution. It depends on a number of factors.

Football isn't black and white.

SydTheAussieRef said:
Thanks for the mega long post @CapnBloodbeard great info. I think of it more as a yellow now. It was definitely not a follow through type push but it was a shove (wind up type) either. So if Yellow what sanction is it? Unsporting?
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Unsporting Behaviour is the caution that applies to the vast majority of offences, such as bad tackles. USB is what applies here. And don't forget it's a direct free kick for the push (or a Penalty Kick) - doesn't matter if it's on or off the ball
What did the referee on the day do?
 
When I saw the title I wondered if someone had been watching the same game I was yesterday......

3 times the home GK used both hands to push an away attacker to the floor at corners.....3 times the fairly useless young referee was watching the ball rather than the players......
Suppose it helps if the referee goes to the same school as the home team!
 
Had a similar incident in my u13s game today. Fairly one sided with away team in almost complete control from start to finish.

Game flew by with only a few minor incidents to deal with. Tried to let the game flow on an awful pitch that was just about playable. Last minute of the game and the result long since decided, home team keeper (who has a tendency to lose the plot occasionally) goes Manuel Neuer on the edge of the area then out of nowhere gives an away attacker a 2 handed shove in the chest, to his credit despite the provocation, absolutely no reaction from the attacker!

After a bit of thinking time where I did consider reaching for the back pocket, settled for a lemon and a "count yourself lucky" lecture for the keeper.
 
I really think it is one of those 'you have to be there' type incidents. And comes down to aggressiveness.
Of note looking at my local FA send off codes, R2 is Violent Conduct with a Grade of One (lowest) for 'pushing, no punches thrown'
 
SydTheAussieRef said:
Of note looking at my local FA send off codes, R2 is Violent Conduct with a Grade of One (lowest) for 'pushing, no punches thrown'
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Damned colonials making up their own rules again. And there we were thinking it was just the American contingent :rolleyes::eek:
 
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