RefSix

VAR Blunder... Again

JH

RefChat Addict
#1
Some referees seem too stubborn to be able to be shown their mistakes and correct them. I don't know whether they do not want to be notorious for having their decisions changed or what but this is a clear penalty.

Edit: Unbelievable, another penalty from the same game not given. Not sure what VAR said on this one if anyone can work it out.
 
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RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
#3
This is where VAR doesn't work. You have two people "upstairs" in a locked room with large screens and sophisticated controls who think there is a problem, but the referee then goes to look at it on a smaller screen in a pressure cooker environment and says there isn't. There shouldn't be a pitch side monitor, the decision should be taken by the VAR.

Whilst the first was plainly wrong, I don't think there is enough in the second to say it was a clear and obvious error not to give the penalty.
 

one

RefChat Addict
#5
This is where VAR doesn't work. You have two people "upstairs" in a locked room with large screens and sophisticated controls who think there is a problem, but the referee then goes to look at it on a smaller screen in a pressure cooker environment and says there isn't. There shouldn't be a pitch side monitor, the decision should be taken by the VAR.

Whilst the first was plainly wrong, I don't think there is enough in the second to say it was a clear and obvious error not to give the penalty.
Pretty much this but the decision should still be by the referee on the basis of trusting VAR. The monitor is there for the off chance of VAR wanting the referee to look at it.

I very much dislike the first replay to the referee is in slow-mo almost in every case. Slow-mo in this case makes it look less like a foul (less speed, less intensity). Some cases like handball make it look more like a foul (more time to think for offender). Just follow the damn protocol and you have less chance of an error.
 
#6
I agree that even at full speed the first one is a pretty bad miss. I am surprised that he missed it. He was in good position, unobstructed and looking right at it. Pretty clear PK. Once the VAR alerted him, I am shocked that he still didn't give it upon watching. THIS is not a VAR issue. This is a CR issue in my opinion.

The second one... I agree that I'm not convinced this is as clear. Even the VAR had to look at it repeatedly. Several speeds/angles had me wondering if it had any impact on the play as the player appeared to be over running it and stopped trying to back track to the ball. I can understand a no PK here.

My original opinion on VAR remains. VAR should ALWAYS be at full speed to the CR and probably for the VAR's. If it is not obvious at full speed then it is not a clear and obvious error. Once you start applying only the opinion of those in the booth eliminating the CR from the equation, you are applying two different standards. Many decisions are ITOOTR and you will have made it in the opinion of one of multiple referees with only one needed to carry the day. You could slow down a majority of challenges for a ball at a professional level and find some pushing, holding, shirt pulling, etc. Much of it is trifling or accepted at this level. Once we start applying a standard of frame by frame in the PA and awarding PK's for anything resembling a foul (as we saw in the WC), we have different standards and subsequently a mess in my opinion. I believe the CR needs to always carry the decision as their tolerance/opinion has set the standard for the game. I think we all know very good referees who have a different level of tolerance from other referees... It varies from referee to referee, game to game, etc.

First on is a terrible miss imho. Would have to be a failed assessment IMHO.
 
#7
While I'm obviously not really qualified to question the decisions made here, the first incident seems a pretty clear penalty - even if we're generous and suggest that the player slipped, he's still grabbed out with a hand to try and stop the attacker. The second incident is a bit iffier, but anywhere else on the park it's a foul for grabbing the shirt, same standard in the penalty area.
 

JH

RefChat Addict
#9
but anywhere else on the park it's a foul for grabbing the shirt, same standard in the penalty area.
Whilst I do think it is a penalty and your sentiment SHOULD be true. A slight pull on the halfway line might be a free-kick and an identical one in the PA might not be a penalty as I'm sure you've seen before. Consistency across the board isn't always king, you have to adapt to the game, a foul you give in the first minute you might ignore in the last, but as long as you are consistent in that moment of the game (last 10/15 mins) or that area of the pitch (penalty area), you won't go far wrong. I'm not talking about huge differences, but what do you do when a game is heating up? You slow it down, you give the foul you didn't give in the first half etc.
 

Kes

I'll Decide ...
#11
There shouldn't be a pitch side monitor, the decision should be taken by the VAR.
Get rid of the monitor and just overrule the ref for the foul
Not sure what the ultimate answer is but my gut feeling is that that would be a retrograde step.

That would then just reduce the on-field referee (and by default his two AR's) to the status of "AR" whenever a major decision was made.

Logically, you'd need the "top referee" sat in the VAR room rather than out on the field.

Again, just my own opinion though ...
 
#12
Logically, you'd need the "top referee" sat in the VAR room rather than out on the field.
Might actually be something to consider in the future. Older referees close to 'retirement' can basically transition to the VAR room and younger refs can get on the field.

Better that than making a bob or two in the newspaper columns getting the laws wrong. :p
 
#13
Not sure what the ultimate answer is but my gut feeling is that that would be a retrograde step.

That would then just reduce the on-field referee (and by default his two AR's) to the status of "AR" whenever a major decision was made.

Logically, you'd need the "top referee" sat in the VAR room rather than out on the field.

Again, just my own opinion though ...
The delay associated with the on-field check is a killer. The whole drawing of a monitor by the ref and players looks terrible
My feeling has always been consistent... scrap the whole process and start again with baby steps. It's far too over-engineered at the moment and is nowhere near achieving the objectives quoted in my last post (MI,MI,C&O)
 

Kes

I'll Decide ...
#14
The delay associated with the on-field check is a killer. The whole drawing of a monitor by the ref and players looks terrible
My feeling has always been consistent... scrap the whole process and start again with baby steps. It's far too over-engineered at the moment and is nowhere near achieving the objectives quoted in my last post (MI,MI,C&O)
Possibly.

For me, the obvious answer is - if you want it to work the way it does in rugby matches then do just that - implement it. Have the ref and VAR room simply miked up and talking to each other. They'd both need to speak the same language of course but it might cut out the circus and drama that we currently have.
 
#16
Interestingly, the dutch refereeing body have apparently said they expected a penalty in both situations.
That's one of the problems
There are far more penalties not given, than there are penalties which shouldn't have been given
Net result, loads more penalties and loads more games decided by spot kicks rather than open play. The only way to offset this, is to downgrade some offences in the box; which is a non-starter
 
#19
In Australia we've found it the other way - if it went to an on-field review, it was guaranteed to be overturned. Which is problematic when Australian referees don't have the foggiest idea how VAR should be implemented.

It took about a season and a half to see the first instance of a ref going to on-field review and saying 'thanks, but no thanks' - and he was correct in doing so.

The 2nd time it occurred, the ref was completely wrong.

Though it makes me wonder....if it goes to on-field review and the original decision was upheld, then surely either the VAR or the ref was in the wrong?

Also, this is such a terrible decision that the referee deserves to take a week off. It's important that accountability is visible.
 
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