Open Age Was it worth it

[one]

I don't think there is a right/wrong answer to this, as those advocating a retake are simply quoting/using LOTG, however in pre match from a level 3 I was told this re GK movement 'How many retakes do you see for it? I'm not saying anything else'

I'm tending to side with Ciley and would ask those that oppose - do you penalise the GK when he fails to release the ball after 6 seconds - because like pens, this happens 90% of the time and is NEVER penalised.

I don't penalise exactly after 6 seconds the same way I don't penalise a goal keeper 2 inches off the line. It's all a matter of what you would allow as triffleing. A yard for me is pushing it but certainly not any more that a yard. As for 6 seconds, I'll go up to 10-15 seconds (and by then he's been warned to release).

Also must note, yards away from a goal line is much more noticeable than seconds longer than 6 seconds, and has a much bigger impact on the game too.

 

[Ciley Myrus]

I don't think there is a right/wrong answer to this, as those advocating a retake are simply quoting/using LOTG, however in pre match from a level 3 I was told this re GK movement 'How many retakes do you see for it? I'm not saying anything else'

I'm tending to side with Ciley and would ask those that oppose - do you penalise the GK when he fails to release the ball after 6 seconds - because like pens, this happens 90% of the time and is NEVER penalised.

Indeed, it's like say, a holding offence in the box, sheer lunacy to award it in the last min in the name of being brave, when you have allowed it to go unpunished for the last 89 mins. the brave call is to award it the first time you see it.
We will never know but am going to doubt at every kick taken on the shoot out in question either gk stayed in the exact legal place, given we cant be there to see it, i will base that on my personal experience of pen shoot outs.
You would be up the jobby creak if you did retake the last one and lo and behold someone has been filming the lot, and there were other times when the gk was not exactly on the line.
So why put yourself in that position? You have been offered a get out of jail card by all and sundry accepting the result as it is, what prize are you going to get by decreeing the last kick was illegal and its a retake? None

its like when the ball running out over the goal line and you are the only person who knows it touched the defenders shoe lace on the way out, nobody cares, nobody appeals, the striker even stops the ball when it goes out and kicks it back to the gk..... not a single person in the planet expects you to go "CORNER". Only a fool would not continue with the goal kick, well a fool or a robot

 

[PinnerPaul]

I don't penalise exactly after 6 seconds the same way I don't penalise a goal keeper 2 inches off the line. It's all a matter of what you would allow as triffleing. A yard for me is pushing it but certainly not any more that a yard. As for 6 seconds, I'll go up to 10-15 seconds

Also must note, yards away from a goal line is much more noticeable than seconds longer than 6 seconds, and has a much bigger impact on the game too.

I'm not sure how far/how many seconds/how noticeable are relevant to the principle of 'ignoring' the laws which we all do for perfectly sensible/good reasons.

 

[Ciley Myrus]

I'm not sure how far/how many seconds/how noticeable are relevant to the principle of 'ignoring' the laws which we all do for perfectly sensible/good reasons.

correct, its either 6 seconds, or its more than 6. Whether that more than 6 is 7 or 17, is still punishable, if your that way inclined.

 

[one]

I'm not sure how far/how many seconds/how noticeable are relevant to the principle of 'ignoring' the laws which we all do for perfectly sensible/good reasons.

Allowing triffleing in some cases is not ignoring the law. While it is not part of the law anymore it is a concept that was once there and was never negated by a new law or guideline.

 

[one]

Note that I said some cases. Let's flip the coin, if you allow a keeper off the line by two yards, would you allow the pen taker to place the ball a yard closer, or even a foot closer.

Hope we agree that we don't base our decision on what players want us to do.

 

[Big Cat]

Lame response, but there's a lot of sense in going with whatever 'football expects'. They don't police this law properly at the top so it's unwise for us to do so down on the rec.
I might warn the GK early during KFTPM if liberties are being taken, but if 4 yards is accurate and only occurred on the final kick, i'd concede you had an unenviable call to make

 

[PinnerPaul]

Allowing triffleing in some cases is not ignoring the law. While it is not part of the law anymore it is a concept that was once there and was never negated by a new law or guideline.

'Allowing trifling in some cases is not ignoring the law' - what is it then?

It IS - I agree that's what we do, but don't see how you can take the position that it is OK to do it sometimes - GK releasing the ball - but not others GK coming off his line before ball is kicked at a pen - its the same principle - the reason you allow GK 9 - 10 seconds is the same reason that others allow GKs to come off line at pens.

 

[santa sangria]

Context... had previous pens involved thr GK creeping... did thd GKs a brief before the shoot out... had you warned them already... ? If any of these then much easier to call a retake. If blatant creeping before the kick, also easy.

What to do different?
At least this reminds me that clearly warning the GKs before the kicks is a useful tool

 

[Ben448844]

Lame response, but there's a lot of sense in going with whatever 'football expects'. They don't police this law properly at the top so it's unwise for us to do so down on the rec.
I might warn the GK early during KFTPM if liberties are being taken, but if 4 yards is accurate and only occurred on the final kick, i'd concede you had an unenviable call to make

And here lies the problem. We have a law which if universally applied as intended, would remove all of this 'what football expects' and 'game management' nonsense, because football would expect the law to be applied because that's what's wrote in law and that's what's applied at every match. Because it's not applied at the top it is never going to be applied anywhere else, leading to referees disagreeing with each other on the best way to enforce/ignore a law. If we all applied law from the top down then it would be us who benefit the most as well as the players who would have consistency in the application of the law.

 

[Ben448844]

As it stands most of us will ignore the offence that we see in this instance because we don't want to deal with all the rubbish that ensues. Let's not pretend we are doing it to manage the game in a positive way, we're doing it to manage the game to benefit ourselves. I'm.not criticising here as I'm fully aware that I do this type of thing as well. If it was enforced at the top level and people got usee to seeing the pros punished for it then at grass roots it would be easier to apply the law correctly

 

[BES]

some really interesting feedback and seems a spilt decision.

To clarify 4 yards when saved, but as previous post suggested moving forward off the line before the ball is struck. So Began with a 2 yard rush out.

In addition I did not speak to gks before the shootout about I’m watching their feet on the line. I did tell them it’s in the whistle and where to stand when not active. One for me to consider next time. But to plays devil advocate should we tell players the laws of the game before anything has happened. Should they know the crack before stilepping on the pitch? We just enforce them? Hmm that’s got me thinking...

Someone else asked did I book the gk. No I didn’t, should I have? Didn’t even cross my mind. Maybe I don’t enforce all the laws after all

 

[Mintyref]

some really interesting feedback and seems a spilt decision.

To clarify 4 yards when saved, but as previous post suggested moving forward off the line before the ball is struck. So Began with a 2 yard rush out.

In addition I did not speak to gks before the shootout about I’m watching their feet on the line. I did tell them it’s in the whistle and where to stand when not active. One for me to consider next time. But to plays devil advocate should we tell players the laws of the game before anything has happened. Should they know the crack before stilepping on the pitch? We just enforce them? Hmm that’s got me thinking...

Someone else asked did I book the gk. No I didn’t, should I have? Didn’t even cross my mind. Maybe I don’t enforce all the laws after all

For what it's worth, I wouldn't book and at two yards would also probably order a retake

 

[PinnerPaul]

For what it's worth, I wouldn't book and at two yards would also probably order a retake

Once you penalise the GK a caution is mandatory I thought?

 

[santa sangria]

But to plays devil advocate should we tell players the laws of the game before anything has happened?

Great question. We manage players throughout the game and we have to choose when to be proactive - and it varies massively from league to league.

E.g. DFK just under 10 yds outside box. Do you leave the players to themselves? No, you spot the ball, tell the kicker on the whistle, pace the distance, tell the wall inside the box, and warn them about hands. It’s an extreme example but every single part of that is managing the players and communicating the laws - but it’s all done so you keep control if/when you have to make a decision. Whistling a handball PK is much easier after that. (If it seems extreme to you, it might not when you get to 5-4 or something like that.)

DFK in own half. Walk away.

When is it smart to interfere? A second PK in a game that is already 6-0. No need to hassle the GK. ... 1-1 last minute PK, then deffo time to warn the taker on the whistle, the GK about the line, and all players about encroaching.

A penalty shoot out? For me, from what I’ve seen, warning both GKs at the first kicks is a super smart move at any level. Strictly speaking I had an awesome u10 shoot out once and I didn’t warn them but for every other, oh yes

I also had one horrid call from an over zealous AR at a PK last season so if I can I have a word with the AR - deffo before a shoot out.

 

[Ben448844]

Great question. We manage players throughout the game and we have to choose when to be proactive - and it varies massively from league to league.

E.g. DFK just under 10 yds outside box. Do you leave the players to themselves? No, you spot the ball, tell the kicker on the whistle, pace the distance, tell the wall inside the box, and warn them about hands. It’s an extreme example but every single part of that is managing the players and communicating the laws - but it’s all done so you keep control if/when you have to make a decision. Whistling a handball PK is much easier after that. (If it seems extreme to you, it might not when you get to 5-4 or something like that.)

DFK in own half. Walk away.

When is it smart to interfere? A second PK in a game that is already 6-0. No need to hassle the GK. ... 1-1 last minute PK, then deffo time to warn the taker on the whistle, the GK about the line, and all players about encroaching.

A penalty shoot out? For me, from what I’ve seen, warning both GKs at the first kicks is a super smart move at any level. Strictly speaking I had an awesome u10 shoot out once and I didn’t warn them but for every other, oh yes

I also had one horrid call from an over zealous AR at a PK last season so if I can I have a word with the AR - deffo before a shoot out.

I warn the keepers on the first penalty but I do it discreetly. If you say it in ear shot of the other players then that will draw their attention to the keeper coming off the line rather than just seeing if their team scores.

You could easily argue that the players know the rules (all OA goalkeepers know that rule) and that there's no need to say anything and you certainly wouldn't be wrong in doing that.

 

[Ciley Myrus]

Its a bit like the pre match guff some refs spout to players about what they will put up with and what they wont, fine line between the two
You do not want to back yourself into a corner saying "btw am watching for you coming off the line"
Something like, "careful keepers, try not to come off the line before the ball is hit" might be ok though
At least with the 2nd option, you have not boxed yourself in.

I had an AR flag me a bad one too, the keeper was bouncing about before the kick and the taker scored, and the flag went up, because I never wanted all and sundry to know what the AR was thinking I did go across quietly to him and he said "you ok with the keeper doing that before the kick"! I was like, "erm yes", and then the keepers were like "what was that about ref" and I said, "oh nothing, just my assistant wanting a reminder of the score so far...."