WBA vs BRI

[zarathustra]

you’d probably need double the number of referees, so they can alternate between referee and 4th official.

I don’t see why they don’t have a cadre of referees who only do VAR.

 

[socal lurker]

you’d probably need double the number of referees, so they can alternate between referee and 4th official.

I don’t see why they don’t have a cadre of referees who only do VAR.

I'm guessing that with time that will be the retirement path.

But I think in the short time the desire is to have VARs be the top flight officials to give credibility to the VAR recommendations in the public.

I believe the WC plan is to bring officials as VAR only.

 

[Kent Ref]

They are employees, and therefore demoting them is a massive can of worms as under employment law there are a lot of hoops to be jumped through. There has to be multiple written warnings, performance improvement plans to be followed, and realistically demoting or dismissing someone in the corporate environment takes years unless it falls under gross misconduct.

I believe they are all on fixed term 1 year contracts. Each new contract, each season, is a fresh offer of employment. You need two years permanent employment to get a full set of employment rights. I believe this is not the case here.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

I believe they are all on fixed term 1 year contracts. Each new contract, each season, is a fresh offer of employment. You need two years permanent employment to get a full set of employment rights. I believe this is not the case here.

In the UK, consecutive fixed term contracts accrue service for employment rights, with a maximum of four years' contracts after which the employment is considered as permanent unless the Employer/Trade Union/Employees have agreed otherwise.

 

[Kent Ref]

In the UK, consecutive fixed term contracts accrue service for employment rights, with a maximum of four years' contracts after which the employment is considered as permanent unless the Employer/Trade Union/Employees have agreed otherwise.

Chas:

Thank you.

Do we know what the FA have agreed with the refs?

 

[RustyRef]

Which is just wrong, Lee Mason has been refereeing in the PL since 2006 but he never gets an 'A' game and not likely too so he's only there because he's experienced but his space could easily be filled in by a younger upcoming referee. Graham Scott is another, got promoted in the last 5 years despite being near the end of his career in terms of age but he will never get an 'A' game either so another spot where a younger referee could be there instead. I don't mind older refs aslong as they are good enough and able to do the A games which Atkinson and Dean are capable of so I got no issues about them being there.

I actually do think there need to be more SG1 refs, there are just far too few of them and especially in a season like this, they are barely getting any rest because they are either reffing or on VAR, it's been a problem for years but it just feels like the PGMOL are reluctant to add to many refs because they probably feel it's better for Michael Oliver to referee over 30 games than have a larger group and spread the games more evenly. I know Oliver is a younger referee but he does UEFA games also, the poor guy barely gets a break.

I don't think it is that straightforward. Taking aside Mason, who I agree has been at this level for a long time without ever being trusted with big games, and Scott came into the PL very late, the "oldies" are very important. Atkinson, Marriner, Dean, and Moss are heavily relied on for big games, take them out and there is a real problem as it leaves just Taylor, Oliver, Kavanagh and Pawson for the big games, and possibly Tierney. All of those except Oliver and Kavanagh are in their 40s now, so not up and coming referees any more.

For me the bigger problem is the total lack of progression planning. Referees get promoted to SG1, but then don't get used except for a handful of games a season. Madley, Coote and Bankes fell foul of this, and whilst they are now getting games they are being used far less than the established referees (Coote is the most used of those this season with 12 games, but there are 11 more established referees with more games). The even newer referees, Jones and England, hardly get any games and spend most of their time either holding boards or in the Championship. They aren't going to get used to PL football like this, and need to be given regular runs of games.

And then the biggest problem of all is who is currently at SG2 with the immediate ability to get onto SG1? Gillett and Brooks potentially, Bond at a push, but there is no one really knocking on the door and demanding promotion. Other countries are getting referees onto FIFA in their late 20s or early 30s, I really am struggling to see England having any prospect of doing this. And of our FIFA referees, only two or three are consistently being trusted with top domestic games.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Chas:

Thank you.

Do we know what the FA have agreed with the refs?

I don't know but someone on here may(?)

 

[Paul_10]

For me the bigger problem is the total lack of progression planning. Referees get promoted to SG1, but then don't get used except for a handful of games a season. Madley, Coote and Bankes fell foul of this, and whilst they are now getting games they are being used far less than the established referees (Coote is the most used of those this season with 12 games, but there are 11 more established referees with more games). The even newer referees, Jones and England, hardly get any games and spend most of their time either holding boards or in the Championship. They aren't going to get used to PL football like this, and need to be given regular runs of games.

Just feels like SG1 is an exclusive mens club where getting into it is really difficult but losing your place is very unlikely unless you want to retire. I looked at the referee numbers in other leagues and the volume of referees is higher except for La Liga but what they do is distribute the number of games much more evenly so you don't get situations like you do here of Michael Oliver referees over 30 games and a lesser referee gets just 10 games. Personally I just think it's much better to do it that way if they don't want to increase the numbers, there is no value in giving the top referees almost every round, they are more than good enough to keep up there performances if they just referee half the rounds(so maximum of 19 games) and allow the newer referees get more top flight experience.

Lee Mason is probably a decent guy but he really should be in SG2(along with Scott) , if your never going to get an A game, what is the purpose of him being there and everytime he does a mistake it gets highlighted even more because its "oh its Lee Mason again". I can bet if it was a lesser known referee who did that error, there be less talk about it. Contracts aside, I think any referee in SG1 who is not going to get the top(or crucial) games should be demoted, might seem harsh but times have to move on sadly.

 

[Big Cat]

I don't think it is that straightforward. Taking aside Mason, who I agree has been at this level for a long time without ever being trusted with big games, and Scott came into the PL very late, the "oldies" are very important. Atkinson, Marriner, Dean, and Moss are heavily relied on for big games, take them out and there is a real problem as it leaves just Taylor, Oliver, Kavanagh and Pawson for the big games, and possibly Tierney. All of those except Oliver and Kavanagh are in their 40s now, so not up and coming referees any more.

For me the bigger problem is the total lack of progression planning. Referees get promoted to SG1, but then don't get used except for a handful of games a season. Madley, Coote and Bankes fell foul of this, and whilst they are now getting games they are being used far less than the established referees (Coote is the most used of those this season with 12 games, but there are 11 more established referees with more games). The even newer referees, Jones and England, hardly get any games and spend most of their time either holding boards or in the Championship. They aren't going to get used to PL football like this, and need to be given regular runs of games.

And then the biggest problem of all is who is currently at SG2 with the immediate ability to get onto SG1? Gillett and Brooks potentially, Bond at a push, but there is no one really knocking on the door and demanding promotion. Other countries are getting referees onto FIFA in their late 20s or early 30s, I really am struggling to see England having any prospect of doing this. And of our FIFA referees, only two or three are consistently being trusted with top domestic games.

Been an interesting thread WRT SG1/SG2, answering some of the questions as to why elite refereeing is not as good as it might be
Much lower down the pyramid, what would you like to see to improve refereeing standards and rapid progression of those who show ability?
To better understand the issues at the top, I'm of a mind that there must be significant causality throughout the pyramid

 

[RustyRef]

Been an interesting thread WRT SG1/SG2, answering some of the questions as to why elite refereeing is not as good as it might be
Much lower down the pyramid, what would you like to see to improve refereeing standards and rapid progression of those who show ability?
To better understand the issues at the top, I'm of a mind that there must be significant causality throughout the pyramid

I'm not sure there are problems lower down the pyramid. With the county and FA cores there are much better opportunities for up and coming referees to get excellent coaching. Officials that ran my line at L4 and L3 are now in the middle for Football League games, so they have had reasonably rapid rises through the system. There is also lots of movement between levels, can't remember the exact rule, but it is something like if you don't finish in the top 40% of the L3 bandings for three consecutive seasons you get demoted. That got rid of the "steady Eddies", who had been at L3 for years but were never going to get promoted any further and always managed to stay above the demotion criteria.

In my view the problem comes in at SG2. It was created to develop referees to be ready for SG1, but if you look at the list you have the likes of Keith Stroud, Andy Woolmer, and Scott Duncan, who I think are all in their 50s. They are all good referees, but are they really ever going to make it to SG1, should their places in SG2 not go to younger referees who have a realistic chance of making it onto SG1 in time to make the FIFA cut off age?

Likewise, I don't think that should a referee be demoted from SG1 they automatically drop into SG2. Someone like Stuart Attwell the first time around then he absolutely should as he was young and had the chance to come back, and indeed has developed into a much better referee and a very capable Premier League official. But if someone like Lee Mason was demoted, or any of the others in their late 40s or 50s, what would be the point of putting them into SG2?

 

[jofusref]

i agree with your comments about lee mason but mr scott is a good referee imo

 

[jofusref]

Just feels like SG1 is an exclusive mens club where getting into it is really difficult but losing your place is very unlikely unless you want to retire. I looked at the referee numbers in other leagues and the volume of referees is higher except for La Liga but what they do is distribute the number of games much more evenly so you don't get situations like you do here of Michael Oliver referees over 30 games and a lesser referee gets just 10 games. Personally I just think it's much better to do it that way if they don't want to increase the numbers, there is no value in giving the top referees almost every round, they are more than good enough to keep up there performances if they just referee half the rounds(so maximum of 19 games) and allow the newer referees get more top flight experience.

Lee Mason is probably a decent guy but he really should be in SG2(along with Scott) , if your never going to get an A game, what is the purpose of him being there and everytime he does a mistake it gets highlighted even more because its "oh its Lee Mason again". I can bet if it was a lesser known referee who did that error, there be less talk about it. Contracts aside, I think any referee in SG1 who is not going to get the top(or crucial) games should be demoted, might seem harsh but times have to move on sadly.

 

[Big Cat]

I'm not sure there are problems lower down the pyramid. With the county and FA cores there are much better opportunities for up and coming referees to get excellent coaching. Officials that ran my line at L4 and L3 are now in the middle for Football League games, so they have had reasonably rapid rises through the system. There is also lots of movement between levels, can't remember the exact rule, but it is something like if you don't finish in the top 40% of the L3 bandings for three consecutive seasons you get demoted. That got rid of the "steady Eddies", who had been at L3 for years but were never going to get promoted any further and always managed to stay above the demotion criteria.

In my view the problem comes in at SG2. It was created to develop referees to be ready for SG1, but if you look at the list you have the likes of Keith Stroud, Andy Woolmer, and Scott Duncan, who I think are all in their 50s. They are all good referees, but are they really ever going to make it to SG1, should their places in SG2 not go to younger referees who have a realistic chance of making it onto SG1 in time to make the FIFA cut off age?

Likewise, I don't think that should a referee be demoted from SG1 they automatically drop into SG2. Someone like Stuart Attwell the first time around then he absolutely should as he was young and had the chance to come back, and indeed has developed into a much better referee and a very capable Premier League official. But if someone like Lee Mason was demoted, or any of the others in their late 40s or 50s, what would be the point of putting them into SG2?

Interesting viewpoints... all except the grouping of one particular referee into a list of 'good referees'. Sure you know who I'm referring to!

 

[zarathustra]

if I were a cynical man I’d think that SG1, and to a lesser degree SG2, just look like jobs for the boys.

But I know the fact that there seems to be very few up and coming referees in SG2 who might be ready to make the jump, and there are SG1 referee who only do a handful of games a season with never a sniff of one of the big ones means it’s more likely that there is, or there is perceived to be, a problem with development of referees.

 

[Big Cat]

I also think that some of the newer SG1 refs have had a hard time with VAR and this has stunted the progress they may otherwise have made

 

[PinnerPaul]

I'm voting for James Linington - seen quite a few of his 90's and he always looks pretty competent to me.

 

[APurpleChair]

I know this is quite an old thread now, but I was watching this incident again last night and something occurred to me.

1) Referee blows whistle for free kick to be taken
2) Dunk takes the free kick
3) Referee blows whistle again, whilst ball is in play In the penalty area.

Technically, is the correct restart not a drop ball to the keeper?

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

I know this is quite an old thread now, but I was watching this incident again last night and something occurred to me.

1) Referee blows whistle for free kick to be taken
2) Dunk takes the free kick
3) Referee blows whistle again, whilst ball is in play In the penalty area.

Technically, is the correct restart not a drop ball to the keeper?

A sensible question - there are occasions when a retake is correct, e. g. outside interference as the kick is being taken, and it was probably the best choice in this unusual case.

 

[santa sangria]

I know this is quite an old thread now, but I was watching this incident again last night and something occurred to me.

1) Referee blows whistle for free kick to be taken
2) Dunk takes the free kick
3) Referee blows whistle again, whilst ball is in play In the penalty area.

Technically, is the correct restart not a drop ball to the keeper?

I think:

The ball was not in play.

 

[one]

I know this is quite an old thread now, but I was watching this incident again last night and something occurred to me.

1) Referee blows whistle for free kick to be taken
2) Dunk takes the free kick
3) Referee blows whistle again, whilst ball is in play In the penalty area.

Technically, is the correct restart not a drop ball to the keeper?

Yeap. See post #35 on this thread