defender blocking shot diverts ball to attacker in offside position
- Thread starter happy whistler
- Start date
one
RefChat Addict
Its not a save. Let's take that out to avoid confusion. Its about what you consider to be "deliberately plays the ball" and what to be a "deflection". The closest I could find to my scenario is this vid (which is not an offside situation but nonetheless demonstrates the concept). Do you consider the ball contact by blue 3 a deliberate play at the ball or a deflection? (again, lets leave save out).
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
Guys and gals, with the OP we just don’t know if it was a save or not.
The only thing that’s important here is that everyone gets the concept of:save, deflection or deliberate play.
The only thing that’s important here is that everyone gets the concept of:save, deflection or deliberate play.
FIFA put out considerations for helping determine Deliberate Play vs Deflection. Again, like was mentioned before... CONSIDERATIONS. Things to help us (as referees) determine which is which.
In short, deliberate includes:
* Player moving towards the ball
* The ball is expected
* A deliberate act
* Enough time to act
* Balanced and ready to play
* The ball is properly played
Deflection includes:
* Ball moving towards the player
* Finds the ball coming against them
* An instinct reaction attempt to play the ball
* Not enough time to play the ball
* Has to find their balance first
* The ball deflects from the player
The chart is done in such a way that the consideration is a comparison (ie, was it a deliberate act or an instinctive reaction?)
In short, deliberate includes:
* Player moving towards the ball
* The ball is expected
* A deliberate act
* Enough time to act
* Balanced and ready to play
* The ball is properly played
Deflection includes:
* Ball moving towards the player
* Finds the ball coming against them
* An instinct reaction attempt to play the ball
* Not enough time to play the ball
* Has to find their balance first
* The ball deflects from the player
The chart is done in such a way that the consideration is a comparison (ie, was it a deliberate act or an instinctive reaction?)
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
Oh FFS on one hand that’s great but I can find so many reasons to put Lovren in the right column! No wonder this list didn’t make it into the LotG.
When is this from? Help!
When is this from? Help!
This is great - but you still have to apply other reasoning (eg. skill/expected skill of the player). That's what makes this difficult, even aside from the fact that it just FEELS wrong to give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking player in such cases. Mind you, this list has made me think I could've flagged on Saturday, as there was not enough time to play the ball, he wasn't balanced and the ball didn't go anywhere near where he intended. I'm also pretty sure that if I'd have flagged the referee in the middle would've wondered why the hell I was doing so!
This version was released Summer 2017. It updates a similar looking chart that was from 2014 or 2015. I haven't seen a newer version than this one.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
But if we've had a version of the LotG since, why don't IFAB have it in?
I've only skim read this thread, because I'm sure when IFAB wrote 'football's laws are relatively simple, compared with other sports', they didn't intend this to be the outcome. I'd go with Padfoot's simple interpretation, because it's hard enough determining if a player is in an offside position, without adding all this to the equation. Thankfully, I think this intricacy is limited to VAR reviews, although all referees need to be aware of the basic wording
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
FIFAs considerations are simply irrelevant. The LOTG clearly defines what ‘played the ball’ is. End of discussion.
They are simply a list of handy excuses to make refs feel better about wimping out of tough decisions.
I will add a little more detail to my original post. When attacker drew his foot back to shoot defender was already starting to move his leg in the anticipated direction of the shot and his leg was still moving when the contact with the ball occurred. I did not consider save option as not close enough to the goal. Some of your reasoned assessments suggest I was correct in playing on but the diagram that James L posted was very similar to what actually happened. I have not seen this before and don't know where it is from so am still unsure what the correct decision would have been. I did have my doubts as to whether or not I was correct at the time which is why I posted it on here.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
Distance to goal doesn't matter. If it was a shot and the defender has blocked it - and the shot was on goal or close to the goal - or if the defender was so close to the ball you don't know if the ball was goal bound or not - then it was very probably a "save".
Distance of the defender does matter. If the defender was very close and moves to block the ball then it might also have been a rebound/deflection.
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
NO!
If the defender has committed ‘an action which contacts with the ball’ the LOTG are 100% crystal clear that they have ‘played the ball’ so it CANNOT be a rebound/deflection.
What is so difficult for people to understand or accept that the LOTG are clear on what constitutes ‘playing the ball’?
Are you that desperate to avoid the tough decisions that you’re going to pretend that the definition doesn’t exist?
The LOTG are clear.....if you take an action which contacts with the ball, you have played the ball. In terms of offside, only an action which is a ‘save’ has relevance when considering the OP.
The LOTG even defines what a save is......which opens up a whole new avenue for debate......but I would suggest that defender sticking a leg out on or near the 18 yd line is not going to be a save.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
NO!
It must be a save if the ball is heading towards or very close to the goal.
And if the defender is so close that you can't tell, then you have to interpret and decide.
In the same way, if the defender is so close to the attacker... well, FIFA said it better than I can!
Ha! Padfoot Vs FIFA!
It's all about instinct!
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
Wrong again.
Heading towards is not what is defined. ‘....going into or very close to the goal....’ otherwise any ball played towards the goal which is played by a defender, anywhere on the pitch could be classed as a ‘save’!
So the ball has to be heading between the posts, or so close as to make no difference, and without any intervention would enter the goal (or as close as makes no difference) for the contact to be considered a ‘save’.
It’s very simple when you stop trying to find excuses for not applying the LOTG as written.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
Yawn
So if someone shoots from 20 or even 25, or even 30 yards out the referee believes it is on target, or close or close as, or to put into law the referee believes that the ball is going into the goal or close to it, then any intervention is a save.