Its not a save. Let's take that out to avoid confusion. Its about what you consider to be "deliberately plays the ball" and what to be a "deflection". The closest I could find to my scenario is this vid (which is not an offside situation but nonetheless demonstrates the concept). Do you consider the ball contact by blue 3 a deliberate play at the ball or a deflection? (again, lets leave save out).The laws of the game specifically say:
"A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by any opponent) is not considered to have gained an advantage. "
and
"A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area). "
So unless your player is sliding in to block the ball from going into or very close to the goal then he has deliberately played the ball and any player in an offside position who receives that ball would not be gaining an advantage and any goal would stand.
So, it seems the issue is whether the defender in question could be classed as having performed a deliberate save.
http://www.theifab.com/laws/offside/chapters/offside-offence
Given the distance from goal I would likely rule this as deliberate play.Its not a save. Let's take that out to avoid confusion. Its about what you consider to be "deliberately plays the ball" and what to be a "deflection". The closest I could find to my scenario is this vid (which is not an offside situation but nonetheless demonstrates the concept). Do you consider the ball contact by blue 3 a deliberate play at the ball or a deflection? (again, lets leave save out).
This is great - but you still have to apply other reasoning (eg. skill/expected skill of the player). That's what makes this difficult, even aside from the fact that it just FEELS wrong to give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking player in such cases. Mind you, this list has made me think I could've flagged on Saturday, as there was not enough time to play the ball, he wasn't balanced and the ball didn't go anywhere near where he intended. I'm also pretty sure that if I'd have flagged the referee in the middle would've wondered why the hell I was doing so!FIFA put out considerations for helping determine Deliberate Play vs Deflection. Again, like was mentioned before... CONSIDERATIONS. Things to help us (as referees) determine which is which.
In short, deliberate includes:
* Player moving towards the ball
* The ball is expected
* A deliberate act
* Enough time to act
* Balanced and ready to play
* The ball is properly played
Deflection includes:
* Ball moving towards the player
* Finds the ball coming against them
* An instinct reaction attempt to play the ball
* Not enough time to play the ball
* Has to find their balance first
* The ball deflects from the player
The chart is done in such a way that the consideration is a comparison (ie, was it a deliberate act or an instinctive reaction?)
View attachment 2499
This version was released Summer 2017. It updates a similar looking chart that was from 2014 or 2015. I haven't seen a newer version than this one.Oh FFS on one hand that’s great but I can find so many reasons to put Lovren in the right column! No wonder this list didn’t make it into the LotG.
When is this from? Help!
But if we've had a version of the LotG since, why don't IFAB have it in?This version was released Summer 2017. It updates a similar looking chart that was from 2014 or 2015. I haven't seen a newer version than this one.
Its not a save. Let's take that out to avoid confusion. Its about what you consider to be "deliberately plays the ball" and what to be a "deflection". The closest I could find to my scenario is this vid (which is not an offside situation but nonetheless demonstrates the concept). Do you consider the ball contact by blue 3 a deliberate play at the ball or a deflection? (again, lets leave save out).
FIFA put out considerations for helping determine Deliberate Play vs Deflection. Again, like was mentioned before... CONSIDERATIONS. Things to help us (as referees) determine which is which.
In short, deliberate includes:
* Player moving towards the ball
* The ball is expected
* A deliberate act
* Enough time to act
* Balanced and ready to play
* The ball is properly played
Deflection includes:
* Ball moving towards the player
* Finds the ball coming against them
* An instinct reaction attempt to play the ball
* Not enough time to play the ball
* Has to find their balance first
* The ball deflects from the player
The chart is done in such a way that the consideration is a comparison (ie, was it a deliberate act or an instinctive reaction?)
View attachment 2499
Distance to goal doesn't matter. If it was a shot and the defender has blocked it - and the shot was on goal or close to the goal - or if the defender was so close to the ball you don't know if the ball was goal bound or not - then it was very probably a "save".I will add a little more detail to my original post. When attacker drew his foot back to shoot defender was already starting to move his leg in the anticipated direction of the shot and his leg was still moving when the contact with the ball occurred. I did not consider save option as not close enough to the goal. Some of your reasoned assessments suggest I was correct in playing on but the diagram that James L posted was very similar to what actually happened. I have not seen this before and don't know where it is from so am still unsure what the correct decision would have been. I did have my doubts as to whether or not I was correct at the time which is why I posted it on here.
Distance to goal doesn't matter. If it was a shot and the defender has blocked it - and the shot was on goal or close to the goal - or if the defender was so close to the ball you don't know if the ball was goal bound or not - then it was very probably a "save".
Distance of the defender does matter. If the defender was very close and moves to block the ball then it might also have been a rebound/deflection.
I have not seen this before and don't know where it is from[/QUOTE said:It’s in the back of the LOTG book.
NO!The LOTG even defines what a save is......which opens up a whole new avenue for debate......but I would suggest that defender sticking a leg out on or near the 18 yd line is not going to be a save.
NO!
It must be a save if the ball is heading towards or very close to the goal.
And if the defender is so close that you can't tell, then you have to interpret and decide.
In the same way, if the defender is so close to the attacker... well, FIFA said it better than I can!
Ha! Padfoot Vs FIFA!
It's all about instinct!
Wrong again.
Heading towards is not what is defined. ‘....going into or very close to the goal....’ otherwise any ball played towards the goal which is played by a defender, anywhere on the pitch could be classed as a ‘save’!
So the ball has to be heading between the posts, or so close as to make no difference, and without any intervention would enter the goal (or as close as makes no difference) for the contact to be considered a ‘save’.
It’s very simple when you stop trying to find excuses for not applying the LOTG as written.