A&H

Open Age Instructions to Club linesmen

Thanks for all that feedback - really interesting to hear all the views and current practices and I'm sure that many of us are much wiser now about this.

One thing I think that has been a side-effect of this practice is that it doesn't encourage youngsters to run the line which I have often found is a way to create interest in he role of officiating in local football. No chance of a taster before dipping in and I'm sure we have lost some aspiring refs because of this. Although the point about the number of West Yorkshire officials in the top leagues is well made. Maybe they are there not as a result of this practice but in spite of it.

Thanks for all the contributions so far.
 
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Jeff Jacklin said:
Thanks for all that feedback - really interesting to hear all the views and current practices and I'm sure that many of us are much wiser now about this.

One thing I think that has been a side-effect of this practice is that it doesn't encourage youngsters to run the line which I have often found is a way to create interest in he role of officiating in local football. No chance of a taster before dipping in and I'm sure we have lost some aspiring refs because of this. Although the point about the number of West Yorkshire officials in the top leagues is well made. Maybe they are there not as a result of this practice but in spite of it.

Thanks for all the contributions so far.
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May be, but knowing the leagues that most of these officials cut their teeth on, there are very few "youngsters" on the touchline. They didn't start on junior football leagues but went straight into open age and some tough open age leagues at that. Also, it's West Riding, not West Yorkshire.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
Jeff, it is not that you are not allowed to ask them to do more, but it is current practice that you do not ask them to do more.

Also the tradition has grown from the requirements of the Basic Course where pre-match instructions to club assistants is just what I have said above and that if they are guilty of misconduct, you can remove them. No mention of offsides, no mention of monitoring substitutions, no mention of signalling for penal offences.
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The Basic Referees Course (as per January 2013) says the following about Assistant Referees attached to clubs

'The work allotted to them as assistant referees is to signal when the ball is entirely over the touchline, subject always to the decisions of the referee and to inform the referee that a substitution is required. However, in some circumstances an assistant referee may be given additional responsibilities provided that the referee has confidence in their competence. For example the referee may seek their assistance or advice with goal kicks, corner kicks or offside'
 
haywain said:
The Basic Referees Course (as per January 2013) says the following about Assistant Referees attached to clubs

'The work allotted to them as assistant referees is to signal when the ball is entirely over the touchline, subject always to the decisions of the referee and to inform the referee that a substitution is required. However, in some circumstances an assistant referee may be given additional responsibilities provided that the referee has confidence in their competence. For example the referee may seek their assistance or advice with goal kicks, corner kicks or offside'
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The Basic Course is based on a loose framework from which to work. There are at least 6 different course templates provided in the tutor manual. The points I made earlier relate to the actual assessment papers for the Practical exercises undertaken on the Basic Course and not the course content. You will note that I said no monitoring of substitutions, not that they shouldn't inform when one was required.
 
One more point, the actual Basic Course itself is under review and it is expected that a new structure will be provided before the start of next season. It may drive a change on this particular issue however other areas, may receive greater emphasis. On West Riding courses we have no "talk and chalk" and "death by powerpoint" is also virtually phased out too. It really only resurfaces when the weather and lack of available space leaves us with no option.
 
Frankly, I would have thought any charge would be off putting for someone who is volunteering. Even if they offered it for free, yes it would cost them a bit of money, but the hassle it would save would be far greater.
 
Southend-ref said:
Frankly, I would have thought any charge would be off putting for someone who is volunteering. Even if they offered it for free, yes it would cost them a bit of money, but the hassle it would save would be far greater.
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Totally agree and it is becoming quite common in West Riding for leagues/clubs to ask for courses to be run just for their volunteers and they pay for the course. They then offer their services for free to their own clubs, meaning the club benefits by not having to pay out for referees each week. The dangers are that they are allocated a referee from outside the club who rightly expects their fee OR the new referees don't take to refereeing and don't referee OR they move on to the next level meaning they can't turn out just for that club/league.
 
Have I understood that right....that some F.A. Qualified Referees don't get paid for refereeing in certain leagues
 
haywain said:
Have I understood that right....that some F.A. Qualified Referees don't get paid for refereeing in certain leagues
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Some FA qualified referees pay back the cost of their course fee by refereeing without charging a fee. They have been warned about the implications for colleagues who follow them. If it means that a game has a qualified referee, then it works for those clubs and those leagues.
 
I only qualified as a referee in January 2013. I’ve refereed about 60 matches, youth, schools, colleges and three tournaments. I’ve also been an assistant referee a couple of times. Prior to that, I spent two years managing a youth team and have been a football dad for the past 8 years, acting as assistant referee on many occasions. I applied to referee open age games in December and have my first open age game this Saturday, weather permitting. No doubt I shall soon discover whether Youth football CAR’s and Open Age football CAR’S are two entirely different beasts.

What do I generally discuss with my CAR’s?
Where to patrol
Ball in/out of play along touchline – incl. direction if sure
Indicating goal kicks, corner kicks
Goals
Foul throws
Subs
Misconduct
Penalties
Offside
Flags unfurled
No coaching
Assisting not insisting
Enjoyment
Thanks for volunteering
Trust me, the world hasn’t ended as a result of me sharing this information with CAR’s of any ability.

Looking at the bigger picture, surely, (my view), the next goal for the F.A. has to be Referees and Neutral Assistant Referees for every game, for reasons that have been touched on in various posts on this thread. Clearly there is an important financial issue to consider.

Perhaps it isn’t an F.A. goal, though I would assume that the F.A. does set goals in terms of Refereeing.
As a first step, an easier goal would be to get all County F.A.’s singing from the same hymn sheet. (Did I say easier!!!)

What do we have so far:-

West Riding – ball in/out of play. No direction of throw, no offsides
Three other counties Jeff has refereed in – nothing enforced
West Midlands (Craig) – No free kicks, penalties, foul throws
Scotland (Micky) – Up to the ref to decide whether they want a CAR. ‘If we do get them, only in and out for throw, no corners’
Hull (Hull and Sheffield) – up to the ref to decide what they can/can’t do
Matty (New Zealand) – no rules – only ask for in/out of play
Matthew (Lancashire) – not sure
Rich (Gwent) – ball in/out of play
Colt (Notts) – throw ins / offsides
Sussex – Up to Referee to decide

Why is there no consistency across County F.A.’s? – Is it due to a lack of guidance from above (from the F.A.) ? Or, possibly a lack of communication between County F.A.’s on issues that are not governed by geography?

I mentioned Respect and was asked what this issue has to do with Respect. I think it has everything to do with Respect and I’m not just talking about the F.A. Code of Conduct. Referees have gone through a relatively intensive training course, CAR’s usually haven’t. So, surely, instructing them, helping them, encouraging them and engaging with them are all elements of Respecting them.

Brian, you mention that ‘I tell them ‘ just stick your flag up when ball goes out of play and if you’re sure which team should restart, then indicate that’
And add that
‘95% or more of Club Assistants I have worked with over the last 15 seasons haven’t moved more than 5 yards either side of halfway’

With respect, Brian, given what you require of them, why would they need to?

Oh, and Jeff, how about changing your F.A./ Organisation on here from West Yorkshire to West Riding and making an old(ish) man very happy :)
 
I'll think about the West Riding thing but I've never lived there - just seems so outdated to me.

Back to instructions to referees and the comments that it is down to the referee what he asks the Club linesmen to do.
That's all well and good saying that but you have to take into account two things:

1. The expectations of the CARs - in the West Riding (I'm getting there) they are expecting to only give ball in and out of play. My experience indicates that most would be uncomfortable doing any more than they have done for the last 10 years. I even had total resistance to asking CARs to run the left wing touchline for a change so goodness know how the stress levels would rise with more responsibility.

2. The point about assessing the capabilities of the CARs and then asking the capable ones to do more is worth consideration but falls down once you allow one CAR to give off-sides (for example) and because the other CAR is an idiot you don't let him do that. I know the reaction you would get from one team as soon as a CAR flag goes up in a close off-side situation. You have to treat both teams the same in my view.
 
1) Expectations can be changed - tho i do appreciate that you're dealing with Yorkshiremen here :)
2) I wouldn't dream of giving different instructions to CAR's. I see it as my responsibility as the referee to tell them what i what from them and then my responsibility to keeps tabs on the CAR's throughout the game and gauge how much i can rely on their respective decision making.
 
haywain said:
I only qualified as a referee in January 2013. I’ve refereed about 60 matches, youth, schools, colleges and three tournaments. I’ve also been an assistant referee a couple of times. Prior to that, I spent two years managing a youth team and have been a football dad for the past 8 years, acting as assistant referee on many occasions. I applied to referee open age games in December and have my first open age game this Saturday, weather permitting. No doubt I shall soon discover whether Youth football CAR’s and Open Age football CAR’S are two entirely different beasts.

What do I generally discuss with my CAR’s?
Where to patrol
Ball in/out of play along touchline – incl. direction if sure
Indicating goal kicks, corner kicks
Goals
Foul throws
Subs
Misconduct
Penalties
Offside
Flags unfurled
No coaching
Assisting not insisting
Enjoyment
Thanks for volunteering
Trust me, the world hasn’t ended as a result of me sharing this information with CAR’s of any ability.

Looking at the bigger picture, surely, (my view), the next goal for the F.A. has to be Referees and Neutral Assistant Referees for every game, for reasons that have been touched on in various posts on this thread. Clearly there is an important financial issue to consider.

Perhaps it isn’t an F.A. goal, though I would assume that the F.A. does set goals in terms of Refereeing.
As a first step, an easier goal would be to get all County F.A.’s singing from the same hymn sheet. (Did I say easier!!!)

What do we have so far:-

West Riding – ball in/out of play. No direction of throw, no offsides
Three other counties Jeff has refereed in – nothing enforced
West Midlands (Craig) – No free kicks, penalties, foul throws
Scotland (Micky) – Up to the ref to decide whether they want a CAR. ‘If we do get them, only in and out for throw, no corners’
Hull (Hull and Sheffield) – up to the ref to decide what they can/can’t do
Matty (New Zealand) – no rules – only ask for in/out of play
Matthew (Lancashire) – not sure
Rich (Gwent) – ball in/out of play
Colt (Notts) – throw ins / offsides
Sussex – Up to Referee to decide

Why is there no consistency across County F.A.’s? – Is it due to a lack of guidance from above (from the F.A.) ? Or, possibly a lack of communication between County F.A.’s on issues that are not governed by geography?

I mentioned Respect and was asked what this issue has to do with Respect. I think it has everything to do with Respect and I’m not just talking about the F.A. Code of Conduct. Referees have gone through a relatively intensive training course, CAR’s usually haven’t. So, surely, instructing them, helping them, encouraging them and engaging with them are all elements of Respecting them.

Brian, you mention that ‘I tell them ‘ just stick your flag up when ball goes out of play and if you’re sure which team should restart, then indicate that’
And add that
‘95% or more of Club Assistants I have worked with over the last 15 seasons haven’t moved more than 5 yards either side of halfway’

With respect, Brian, given what you require of them, why would they need to?

Oh, and Jeff, how about changing your F.A./ Organisation on here from West Yorkshire to West Riding and making an old(ish) man very happy :)
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Haywain even thou I use to do it myself why give foul throws to linesman
 
Haywain, my issues with CARs are as follows:

1. they cheat
2. they are usually operating under duress, not voluntarily (often a sub or spectator rather than a club official)
3. the likelihood of them taking in a 14 or 15 point instruction from me on what i require from them, then acting on it in accordance with the LOAF, is low
4. they cheat

for all of these reasons, although mostly 1. and 4., my local FA requests that the CAR only indicates ball in/out of play.
 
ref craig said:
Haywain even thou I use to do it myself why give foul throws to linesman
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Hi Craig

two reasons, really. One, foot entirely on the pitch - assistant referee almost always in the best position to see that. two, sometimes my priority will be on where the ball is going rather than where it's coming from - pushing / pulling etc. What i'll tell them pre match is that, generally i'll be looking out for foul throws but sometimes i'll be watching where the ball is going so, if they see an obvious foul throw and they think i might not have seen it, to flag it. i also explain foul throw in terms of foot clearly off the ground, wholly over the line, not released over the head.

i do preface my pre match chat with an apology if i'm repeating stuff that they already know
 
Richthekeeper said:
Haywain, my issues with CARs are as follows:

1. they cheat

4. they cheat

for all of these reasons, although mostly 1. and 4., my local FA requests that the CAR only indicates ball in/out of play.
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I think that's an outrageous statement - and a total insult to lots of CAR's, some who are very good and some who simply do their best.

Why don't you send a copy of that to every club in the leagues that you referee on and see what they think of your enlightened approach
 
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Exactly and logical and how I was taught - at throw-ins the feet are lino's responsibility, everything else is refs - except in West Yorkshire - sorry West Riding - where everything is down to the ref when you have CARs.
 
Jeff, I'm impressed by how you're beginning to embrace your West Riding ties :)
 
i don't think that's outrageous or insulting. consider the scenario:

Club A is attacking in the last minute of the final league game of the season. Club A needs to win to avoid relegation.

Club A midfielder has a shot which is turned in by Club A striker, who is offside. Club A assistant referee [isn't up with play/fails to spot the offence/doesn't know the LOAF/is busy smoking a cigarette and drinking a can of strongbow/is distracted by a butterfly/cheats] (delete as appropriate).

Referee is forced to award the goal, Club A avoids relegation and Club G goes down instead.

How is this an acceptable outcome?
 
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