Level 4 - What Happens?

[RustyRef]

I have just had a look at my sad little excel spreadsheet. I got paid slightly above £553 for refereeing in March. All those games would of been available to me as a level 7. Most months I make something close to that figure (granted I probably did a few extra because of the weather postponements.

This is my hobby. I did BJJ before refereeing and I paid a fortune for something that felt just as hard and required a lot of studying, equipment and commitment. I do often swap matches for a trip to the gym (granted gym take an hour and a half).

I think £553 a month isn't to be sniffed. Especially if you're younger/broke. Grassroots football if you can get on a motorcycle or a good car on mileage is well worth it.

That then starts to get into tax questions. You can earn up to £1,000 a year tax free in "other income", anything above that and you are legally obliged to complete a self assessment.

 

[OldNavyRef]

That then starts to get into tax questions. You can earn up to £1,000 a year tax free in "other income", anything above that and you are legally obliged to complete a self assessment.

Don't remind me! Not here to ask what others do.

But my job demands I declare all income to the government earned down to the penny. I then have to pay tax on all income sorted through a financial adviser who also charges me a fortune. So that £552 does get a clean -40%.

Don't like to think about that though hahaa

 

[deusex]

I got somewhat shouted down last time I said this, but L4 is at least in part designed as a test of commitment for higher levels. Are you prepared to put in the time and workload of an L3 but without a significant jump in pay? If so, they can put you forward for L3 and above knowing you're "not in it for the money" and if not, you can go back to L5 and stick with similar payment but for a much smaller time commitment.

L4 is tough by design, and it's worth doing as part of the process of getting to higher levels. I'd never recommend it if it's the limit of your ambition though.

Very interesting thread this.
This sounds like one of those companies that offers unpaid internships with the faint hope of a job at the end.
Some of the figures quoted above for an entire day's works are simply taking the p*ss.
Wonder how many refs they string along for 10 years at this level?

 

[RustyRef]

Very interesting thread this.
This sounds like one of those companies that offers unpaid internships with the faint hope of a job at the end.
Some of the figures quoted above for an entire day's works are simply taking the p*ss.
Wonder how many refs they string along for 10 years at this level?

Again, I'm going to guess you are someone that has never been in he NLS system but you feel offended on behalf of referees that are in the NLS?

 

[deusex]

But you're looking at time outside the house, which is fair enough, but if you look at time actually on the pitch, it is fair recognition. I suppose it just depends on which way you look at it, but currently as a 3, I'm outside the house for approx 6-7 hours, collecting £65+ mileage (and the mileage compensation is more than fair at 40p, although appreciate it is to pay for wear and tear also).

If you look at time outside the house, I'm getting under minimum wage, but if you look at what I'm actually being paid for in terms of refereeing a football match that lasts 2 hours from start to finish, I'm on £32.50 an hour. Big difference.

I don't expect work to pay me from when I leave the house, so football is unlikely to do so also. I also find refereeing far more enjoyable than my day job so I'd willingly take considerably less to do it. I meet a colleague usually a short while after leaving the house, we have a good chat and a laugh on the way to the match etc. It's not really 'work'.

Edit to add: You're entitled to look at it however you wish, but personally, as football is only a bonus on top of my day job income, I'm more than happy to accept less per hour out the house to referee a better standard of football and be better looked after, have a good day out with a team of 3 etc.

As a person that travels for my full-time job, I am ABSOLUTELY paid for my travel time. How could my work send me on a 4hr round trip and expect me to only be paid for my time on site?

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

Exactly it for me. I'm repeating myself, but no one forces referees to go into senior levels, and find it somewhat bizarre that it tends to be people that have never been in senior levels that bemoan the fees at senior levels (and I'm talking in general here rather than this topic per se).

Don’t worry I’m perfectly capable of moaning about the fees at level 7 too!

Baffles me that in my old county I’d get paid double the fee I do here for grassroots games on a Sunday. Given my old county was London (higher cost of living but much lower travel costs) and my new county is wilts (all teams but one are at least 20-30 mins drive.

 

[Quarryref]

I think we make a mistake if we conflate a hobby with a job.

Before I started officiating, I played for a while at a similar level. Whilst some clubs and a few players earn silly money, most in the middle to lower reaches of the NLS would have a similar equation on time spent to money earned as referees. I know I did. They do it because they love it and getting paid a bit for their hobby is a bonus. They also have less flexibility than referees on when they need to be available plus training sessions to boot, which is more hours.

People on lower income jobs are well represented by the way and 99% are not doing it because they think they have a chance of getting into the professional game and earning a big salary.

Why do most of them do it - because they enjoy it, want to spend their spare time on it and enjoy earning some beer money / holiday money. If they don't, they do something else.

That's how I think about refereeing and from speaking to officials I referee with regularly, I believe that's how most others at my level think about it too. Whilst we all like an occasional moan about inconvenient / late / absent appointments, we are not some group of exploited workers held captive by a future promise of riches if we reach the hallowed lands of the Premier League.

No problem if others are more motivated by easy money - that's fine, just stick to what you want to do at local level. I just can't see this as a problem football has to solve

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

I think we make a mistake if we conflate a hobby with a job.

Before I started officiating, I played for a while at a similar level. Whilst some clubs and a few players earn silly money, most in the middle to lower reaches of the NLS would have a similar equation on time spent to money earned as referees. I know I did. They do it because they love it and getting paid a bit for their hobby is a bonus. They also have less flexibility than referees on when they need to be available plus training sessions to boot, which is more hours.

People on lower income jobs are well represented by the way and 99% are not doing it because they think they have a chance of getting into the professional game and earning a big salary.

Why do most of them do it - because they enjoy it, want to spend their spare time on it and enjoy earning some beer money / holiday money. If they don't, they do something else.

That's how I think about refereeing and from speaking to officials I referee with regularly, I believe that's how most others at my level think about it too. Whilst we all like an occasional moan about inconvenient / late / absent appointments, we are not some group of exploited workers held captive by a future promise of riches if we reach the hallowed lands of the Premier League.

No problem if others are more motivated by easy money - that's fine, just stick to what you want to do at local level. I just can't see this as a problem football has to solve

I agree it’s not a football problem, it’s a problem across many industries. Zero hours or gig working essentially have the same issues. You have to pay almost all the expenses and do all the admin (sometimes more so than an employee would) but are barely paid enough to cover these costs.

Refereeing is loss making for me, more so than playing ever was. I have two shirts and a pair of trackies and two pairs of black boots. That’s all I’ve bought in 3 years. The rest I had from my playing days (which dependent on your club you wouldn’t have to pay for directly).

That is fine, I do not need to make a profit here, but I’m reffing frugally and losing money. Someone with less money or time will inevitably not be able to afford to do that. The fix might not be higher fees but to act like it’s not a barrier to some people is just not true.

When you start to get higher those costs go up too, things like buzzers become expected. You are asked to come to games in suits or full tracksuits.

I’m not passionate about charging clubs more for refs, I’m passionate about access to all careers for people and the nature of refereeing (and other things obviously but this isn’t called mediachat or bankchat) currently has barriers that could be alleviated given the amount of money washing around in the game.

 

[GraemeS]

Very interesting thread this.
This sounds like one of those companies that offers unpaid internships with the faint hope of a job at the end.
Some of the figures quoted above for an entire day's works are simply taking the p*ss.
Wonder how many refs they string along for 10 years at this level?

Exactly. It baffles me how many referees who have been through those higher levels go out of their way to argue in favour of low fees and off the pitch barriers to the higher levels. It makes me wonder how much of it is motivated by pulling up the drawbridge behind them and/or "I had to go through it so you do too" attitudes.

Football as a whole is stronger if the best referees are given the simplest possible route to the point where they're refereeing at the top of their ability. Then you can raise the ability thresholds to limit numbers at certain levels, rather than ruling people out based on tedious admin or financial reasons.

 

[deusex]

No problem if others are more motivated by easy money - that's fine, just stick to what you want to do at local level. I just can't see this as a problem football has to solve

I'm not sure saying "L4 refs should be paid £10 an hour minimum for the time they sacrifice on a Saturday" is quite "I'm motivated by easy money".

I doubt there's a person on here that wouldn't earn more doing 8 hours overtime at work (with less pressure and no abuse). So the "motivated by money argument really doesn't hold up".

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

I'm not sure saying "L4 refs should be paid £10 an hour minimum for the time they sacrifice on a Saturday" is quite "I'm motivated by easy money".

I doubt there's a person on here that wouldn't earn more doing 8 hours overtime at work (with less pressure and no abuse). So the "motivated by money argument really doesn't hold up".

This idea people have that talking about money means you're obsessed with or motivated by it is so British. In a country with such low salaries compared to similar nations, we have this weird culture that asking for more is about greed and not wanting to just be able to cover your costs.

 

[Big Cat]

Very interesting thread this.
This sounds like one of those companies that offers unpaid internships with the faint hope of a job at the end.
Some of the figures quoted above for an entire day's works are simply taking the p*ss.
Wonder how many refs they string along for 10 years at this level?

Thanks for pointing out that I'm being 'strung along'. Without your wisdom, I may have blindly stumbled through the next 5 to 10 years thinking I was enjoying Step 3 to 6 and Academy football with all the variation that entails, four figure crowds and an unbelievably challenging experience on a weekly basis which hereto has enriched my life experience. I was blissfully unaware that I'm statistically unlikely to progress to higher levels and had been hoodwinked into this level 4 graveyard on crap money I hadn't really accounted for

 

[deusex]

Thanks for pointing out that I'm being 'strung along'. Without your wisdom, I may have blindly stumbled through the next 5 to 10 years thinking I was enjoying Step 3 to 6 and Academy football with all the variation that entails, four figure crowds and an unbelievably challenging experience on a weekly basis which hereto has enriched my life experience. I was blissfully unaware that I'm statistically unlikely to progress to higher levels and had been hoodwinked into this level 4 graveyard on crap money I hadn't really accounted for

There's a subtle difference between "wonder how many refs they string along for 10 years at this level" and "all refs at this level are being strung along".

That said,
You're EXACTLY the type of person they're relying on to do this for peanuts.
"Yeah give Big Cat £5 for this stellar appointment, he wont mind, it's a PRIVILEGE to be here"

 

[Gabriel]

There's a subtle difference between "wonder how many refs they string along for 10 years at this level" and "all refs at this level are being strung along".

That said,
You're EXACTLY the type of person they're relying on to do this for peanuts.
"Yeah give Big Cat £5 for this stellar appointment, he wont mind, it's a PRIVILEGE to be here"

With respect, anyone at that level should be happy with the money. So many won’t get to that level who want it more than some who do. You should at least enjoy officiating if you get to that level.

 

[deusex]

With respect, anyone at that level should be happy with the money. So many won’t get to that level who want it more than some who do. You should at least enjoy officiating if you get to that level.

Oh absolutely you must enjoy it. But why should they be happy with the money if it's less than minimum wage? We should value our own time.
The powers that be think they're doing some refs a favour!

 

[JoetheRef]

With respect, anyone at that level should be happy with the money. So many won’t get to that level who want it more than some who do. You should at least enjoy officiating if you get to that level.

I think we all enjoy officiating but would you do it for little-no money?

 

[Gabriel]

Oh absolutely you must enjoy it. But why should they be happy with the money if it's less than minimum wage? We should value our own time.
The powers that be think they're doing some refs a favour!

I know the money isn’t great, but as has been said by many others, no one forces you to do it and refereeing is not a ‘normal’ job anyway, so the fa are not legally obliged to pay us anything never mind minimum wage.

 

[Gabriel]

I think we all enjoy officiating but would you do it for little-no money?

I would and regularly do. I stepped in to a match 2 weeks ago with 1 hours notice and offered to do it for nothing as I wasn’t appointed anyway. I could have chosen to demand the £32 match fee plus travel but didn’t. I wouldn’t make a point of it often as it is a personal choice but by level 4 the commitment should be there to do that IMHO.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

I would and regularly do. I stepped in to a match 2 weeks ago with 1 hours notice and offered to do it for nothing as I wasn’t appointed anyway. I could have chosen to demand the £32 match fee plus travel but didn’t. I wouldn’t make a point of it often as it is a personal choice but by level 4 the commitment should be there to do that IMHO.

Do you not see how being able to afford to do that is a matter for privilege and not commitment?

 

[deusex]

I would and regularly do. I stepped in to a match 2 weeks ago with 1 hours notice and offered to do it for nothing as I wasn’t appointed anyway. I could have chosen to demand the £32 match fee plus travel but didn’t. I wouldn’t make a point of it often as it is a personal choice but by level 4 the commitment should be there to do that IMHO.

You clearly bloody love it, which is great (I genuinely wish I loved it as much). But surely you can see how clubs/leagues will take advantage of your (and others) goodwill to pay the minimum they can get away with?

They would absolutely pay us nothing if enough people accepted this.