Unwanted advantage

[Mewcenary]

Don't stop & flag, you flag whilst on the move. Not only does it not look messy, it looks brilliant!
As the AR, it's not your decision as to whether the advantage is to be played, you just need to tell the ref that an offence has been committed!

Completely agree with this.

If there is an obvious foul, but you don't flag because you perceive an Advantage could be played, you are dropping the referee in it if he/she does then give the FK. The fact you're not flagging gives the players ammunition to comment, "Even your lino hasn't given that!".

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

The "i want to play lots of advantage and no one can tell me any better" idiots are those who are simply out there for self aggrandizement and club marks......

Of course players will appear to appreciate lots of advantage.....that's because they are largely clueless about their own ability and exceptionally clueless about the LOTG.......and apparently so are a great many referees......

Just another reason why the proposed changes to referee structure will simply result in a lowering of standards yet further, allow for the continued over promotion of the feckless and the witless, and is in reality just another mechanism for the FA to prioritise youth over experience and knowledge.

Oh give it up you troll. If YOU think everybody you assess is doing advantage wrong, then odds are it's actually YOU that doesn't understand advantage, not everybody else. Absolute nonsense you've been posting in here. It concerns me what completely wrong things you're telling the referees you assess. Advantage is situational. You might have 5 in a game, you might not have any for 5 games. Not applying advantage isn't much better than applying a poor advantage. Getting the decision right is best - and players in the lowest of men's grades still want to see advantage played and know when the referee has dropped the ball and stuffed them up.

Think its more than that Kes to be fair.

Have had level 4/5s tell me in pre match that as an AR I shouldn't expect and/or play advantage for fouls in own half.

Doesn't matter what level or experience the other person is - still make your own assessment. I've heard some utterly idiotic things come from national level inspectors down here, even A-league officials.

EDIT: @Dan Cohen pointed out that I probably misread that comment - so I'd rather note that here lest I lead somebody astray. I thought PinnerPaul had received 'advice' from referees for his own game which is how I responded. Dan kindly pointed out that these were prematch instructions from a referee to the AR - so of course you do whatever the ref tells you!

Generally speaking thourh (end edit) For fouls in the defensive third you just really want to see a very clear advantage. I've had plenty of cases where there was 40 yards of space in front of the player fouled just outside his own PA

 

[Charlie Jones]

going to break the mould from my usual here and agree with @Padfoot ... and obviously @Brian Hamilton and any others who inturn agrees with them ...

the only time a play an advantage in the defensive/middle 3rd is if the player has acres of space to run forward into ... besides that its a 'foul, quick look up *sees plenty of defensive players in way* blows whistle' then if fouled team moan its a 'sorry chaps, you were going nowhere, best to take the kick' - occasionally you get the player that does the 'come on ref, play the advantage! we were through' (obviously wasn't) I just joke with them 'pal, even Messi would be struggling to break that defence ...'

saying that, I do play advantages if I can ... some have led to cracking goals!!

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Precisely....although I don't think that's what Padfoot was saying.....something about advantage being restricted to one incidence per EPL team per game or some such

Where on the field advantage occurs is definitely a consideration. There's no blanket rule. Even a foul against the keeper could see an advantage if you can see he's looking to a quick release for a counter attack from a player with a lot of space. Unlikely, but it happens.

Around the attacking third, even a moment of space can lead to a shot on goal, so that's a different consideration - although it's a serious misnomer to claim, as some on here have, that if it's not a shot on goal then it isn't an advantage. Most free kicks don't lead to an attack on goal either ;-)

Yes, there are a number of referees who miss the 'possession' part of advantage. And sometimes you'll just get it wrong. And that goes both ways.

NFI why people are talking about match control or any of that......get it wrong it will hurt your match control either way. So just do your job and let match control sort itself out.

If anything, playing appropriate advantage will assist your match control as it helps you remain invisible. But, high level application of advantage ensures you're considering the nature of the incident and the tempo of the match as well as possession + opportunity, and use your gut to see when play needs to be stopped to avoid retaliation (of course, sometimes stopping play is what leads to retaliation!)

 

[Peter Grove]

Again, that's an FA guideline thing. "Red, Amber & Green" advantage zones, using defensive third, middle third & attacking third. Never in defensive, rarely in middle, more in attacking.

I'm not familiar with this particular guideline but while I'm broadly in agreement with it I would word it slightly differently ("never" strikes me as a little too absolute) as in a previous post on this topic

Basically, what this rendition of the principle says is, be wary of applying the advantage for a team in their own defensive third (there's usually very little chance of a real advantage accruing from there), be more mindful of allowing the advantage in the middle third of the field and be most on the lookout for a good advantage when a team is in the third of the field closest to their opponent's goal.

 

[SLI39]

Not applying advantage isn't much better than applying a poor advantage.

Your post shows good authority on use of advantage, but I cannot agree with the statement above. If we say that a poor advantage is just as acceptable as a free-kick which would have produced a concrete advantage, we are flying in the face of logic. Such eagerness to promote it is what leads others on here to associate it with 'window dressing'.

 

[Cheshire Ref]

going to break the mould from my usual here and agree with @Padfoot ... and obviously @Brian Hamilton and any others who inturn agrees with them ...

the only time a play an advantage in the defensive/middle 3rd is if the player has acres of space to run forward into ... besides that its a 'foul, quick look up *sees plenty of defensive players in way* blows whistle' then if fouled team moan its a 'sorry chaps, you were going nowhere, best to take the kick' - occasionally you get the player that does the 'come on ref, play the advantage! we were through' (obviously wasn't) I just joke with them 'pal, even Messi would be struggling to break that defence ...'

saying that, I do play advantages if I can ... some have led to cracking goals!!

At no point was defensive or middle third's mentioned that is my whole argument. It is a given that fewer advantages are played in this area of the field, Padfoots argument seems to centre around the "alleged" fact that all players are thick, un-educated oaf's who have only just learnt how to tie there own boot laces so ANY advantage is wasted on them, because they are simply too stupid to understand!

 

[PinnerPaul]

Don't stop & flag, you flag whilst on the move. Not only does it not look messy, it looks brilliant!
As the AR, it's not your decision as to whether the advantage is to be played, you just need to tell the ref that an offence has been committed!

You haven't seen me move, "brilliant" it isn't with or without waving the flag!

Interesting opinion though, I might well ask for clarification on that point next season in my first pre match instructions from a ref.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Your post shows good authority on use of advantage, but I cannot agree with the statement above. If we say that a poor advantage is just as acceptable as a free-kick which would have produced a concrete advantage, we are flying in the face of logic. Such eagerness to promote it is what leads others on here to associate it with 'window dressing'.

But I didn't say that a poor advantage is acceptable as a free kick. Just stating that refusing to apply advantage can be nearly as detrimental as applying advantage inappropriately. While the former can deny a team a great attack - and potentially a better one than a free kick - the worst outcome of the latter is the loss of possession.

Perhaps you may feel that I was still a little generous in my description, but I at least felt it was an important distinction

 

[DanCohen17]

Do you know something @Padfoot you really are a joke, I question sometimes whether the controversy is deliberate. You bleat on in other posts about helping and devolping referee's and then produce the venoumous posts as quoted above. If young and or new referee's do come here for help and guidance then what guidance are they getting from a "so called" assessor calling them idiots, witless and feckless?

Do you get a buzz out of belittling people? Your opinion is your opinion but why word it the way you do? You come across as an intelligent man who has clearly swallowed a dictionary so choose your words a little wiser in future as your posts add nothing but negative's to any conversation.

Oh give it up you troll. If YOU think everybody you assess is doing advantage wrong, then odds are it's actually YOU that doesn't understand advantage, not everybody else. Absolute nonsense you've been posting in here. It concerns me what completely wrong things you're telling the referees you assess. Advantage is situational. You might have 5 in a game, you might not have any for 5 games. Not applying advantage isn't much better than applying a poor advantage. Getting the decision right is best - and players in the lowest of men's grades still want to see advantage played and know when the referee has dropped the ball and stuffed them up.

Cheshire & Capn, I'm going to quote Cheshire here, please choose your words carefully. Padders, whilst often controversial (it's a forum, isn't that the point?!) hasn't made any personal comments within this thread. Both of you have. It's wholly obvious that he's not in a "1vsALL" situation as others have posted in agreement. Think carefully about what you post, of you will end up with warnings and/or thread bans.

Doesn't matter what level or experience the other person is - still make your own assessment. I've heard some utterly idiotic things come from national level inspectors down here, even A-league officials.

For fouls in the defensive third you just really want to see a very clear advantage. I've had plenty of cases where there was 40 yards of space in front of the player fouled just outside his own PA

Yes, fully agree about make your own assessment, but not if you're AR and the ref's instructions are very specific I'm afraid.

I'm not familiar with this particular guideline but while I'm broadly in agreement with it I would word it slightly differently ("never" strikes me as a little too absolute) as in a previous post on this topic

Not my choice of words, was a guideline from The FA whilst I was a 4, and I'm fairly certain it hasn't changed since (@Brian Hamilton ?)

You haven't seen me move, "brilliant" it isn't with or without waving the flag!

Interesting opinion though, I might well ask for clarification on that point next season in my first pre match instructions from a ref.

Definitely do seek clarification, it's something that all Middlesex, London & AFA referees within the National Referee Development Programme will be knowledgeable on, as it's been discussed at length in the meetings!

 

[Kes]

For fouls in the defensive third you just really want to see a very clear advantage. I've had plenty of cases where there was 40 yards of space in front of the player fouled just outside his own PA

Totally in agreement.
On more than one occasion I've witnessed a defender bring the ball out of his own penlty area, be tripped by an opponent (but stay on his feet) and then 1.5 seconds later (whilst I'm deciding to blow for a free kick) he sends his centre forward racing clear on goal or down the wing just on half way as I blow for the free kick and bring them back!!
That'll be Kes looking a bit of a pratt then! No thanks. Advantage is advantage - no matter where on the field it might occur or whatever standard of football is involved.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Totally in agreement.

wait, what?

 

[PinnerPaul]

Oh give it up you troll. If YOU think everybody you assess is doing advantage wrong, then odds are it's actually YOU that doesn't understand advantage, not everybody else. Absolute nonsense you've been posting in here. It concerns me what completely wrong things you're telling the referees you assess. Advantage is situational. You might have 5 in a game, you might not have any for 5 games. Not applying advantage isn't much better than applying a poor advantage. Getting the decision right is best - and players in the lowest of men's grades still want to see advantage played and know when the referee has dropped the ball and stuffed them up.


Doesn't matter what level or experience the other person is - still make your own assessment. I've heard some utterly idiotic things come from national level inspectors down here, even A-league officials.

For fouls in the defensive third you just really want to see a very clear advantage. I've had plenty of cases where there was 40 yards of space in front of the player fouled just outside his own PA

"plenty of cases" - not too tactically aware in your part of the world then? Very rare for there to be no defending players within 40 yards of penalty area apart from the one who committed the foul

 

[PinnerPaul]

Cheshire & Capn, I'm going to quote Cheshire here, please choose your words carefully. Padders, whilst often controversial (it's a forum, isn't that the point?!) hasn't made any personal comments within this thread. Both of you have. It's wholly obvious that he's not in a "1vsALL" situation as others have posted in agreement. Think carefully about what you post, of you will end up with warnings and/or thread bans.



Yes, fully agree about make your own assessment, but not if you're AR and the ref's instructions are very specific I'm afraid.


Not my choice of words, was a guideline from The FA whilst I was a 4, and I'm fairly certain it hasn't changed since (@Brian Hamilton ?)


Definitely do seek clarification, it's something that all Middlesex, London & AFA referees within the National Referee Development Programme will be knowledgeable on, as it's been discussed at length in the meetings!

Thanks Dan - will take that on board - its what this forum is for at the end of the day, to learn something.

Pity others donbt always use in that way - but that's for another thread I guess!

 

[DanCohen17]

Thanks Dan - will take that on board - its what this forum is for at the end of the day, to learn something.

Pity others donbt always use in that way - but that's for another thread I guess!

No worries Paul. Just re-read my post, and it should have said "L4's" within those Counties, although I'm sure it feeds down through the levels!

 

[Kes]

wait, what?

Had to happen sooner or later.....

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

"plenty of cases" - not too tactically aware in your part of the world then? Very rare for there to be no defending players within 40 yards of penalty area apart from the one who committed the foul

That was the player outside his own PA. You'll need to get up earlier to catch me

And certainly noted @DanCohen17 - if I do the wrong thing publicly and get admonished publicly I can certainly acknowledge it publicly! Of course regardless of what other members do I'm responsible for my own actions (and isn't that what we tell players all the freaking time??)
Thanks for pointing out where I misread PaulPinner's post above too - I've added an edit to the original (without deleting the additional error)

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Cheshire & Capn, I'm going to quote Cheshire here, please choose your words carefully. Padders, whilst often controversial (it's a forum, isn't that the point?!) hasn't made any personal comments within this thread. Both of you have. It's wholly obvious that he's not in a "1vsALL" situation as others have posted in agreement. Think carefully about what you post, of you will end up with warnings and/or thread bans.



Yes, fully agree about make your own assessment, but not if you're AR and the ref's instructions are very specific I'm afraid.


Not my choice of words, was a guideline from The FA whilst I was a 4, and I'm fairly certain it hasn't changed since (@Brian Hamilton ?)


Definitely do seek clarification, it's something that all Middlesex, London & AFA referees within the National Referee Development Programme will be knowledgeable on, as it's been discussed at length in the meetings!

@DanCohen17

Sorry but I've been busy and not been able to get this posted before now. These images below are screen shots from the assessors handbook which covers Levels 7 up to 4. This handbook is available in the Resources Section of this forum. The advice on Advantage has not changed despite 2 revisions of the handbook since publication.

The directives for Level 3, as mentioned by @RustyRef, include reference to allowing time for advantage to develop. These notes below are clear about playing advantage in the defensive third - do not do it at Level 5 or 4.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Thanks for that Brian. Good to have that sort of evidence of 'well, say what you like, but here's the proof of what assessors have been told to look for'

So while we can still discuss whether to agree or disagree with it (are those guidelines national?), we can say 'well, categorical statements like that are absurd but if that's what you're told to do, then that's what you're told to do!'

(after all, one can discourse hypothetically while accepting the reality!)

 

[bester]

Explains some of the views in the whether you can play advantage from an offside thread.