A&H

who has which flag...

GraemeS said:
Ah yes, blame the early start for me not reading point 1 first!

Still, I don't really like the idea this is a strict thing that must be followed with no deviation. The ex-L2 in question had stepped down due to the fact his mobility had decreased, and was also grumbling about having been given another game the following day. So both he and I were happy to have him on the "junior line" and up until this thread, I would have assumed that means the other AR takes over in an injury. The only other time I've worked with this guy, we were both assistants and the referee made the exact same decision - put me on the benches and him on the other side, again I was ready to come on if needed in that situation.

I've turned up to games while on the road to recovery from an ankle injury, or with a slight stomach bug, or having slept badly the night before - happy to go up and down the line for 90 minutes, but not necessarily feeling mentally or physically up for more than that. On those occasions I've asked to go Junior, and unless there's a brand new deer-in-the-headlights L7 on the other line, it's been the correct decision to go along with that, even if I am technically more senior. Referees aren't robots, certainly not below PL level, these soft factors have to be considered.
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The rules on seniority are set out to stop disputes and personal opinion. However, if the senior official does not feel that they should take over for various reasons - injury, etc; they they waive their entitlement and the other AR takes over. The important factor is get the match finished. However, having arrange another appointment after this one, is not a valid reason to stand aside. The FA would take dim view (especially if the later match was of a lower standing, i.e. a juniors match).

What you have to remember @GraemeS is that who does bench side is your choice, we are talking about who takes over and the League rules.
 
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lincs22 said:
The rules on seniority are set out to stop disputes and personal opinion. However, if the senior official does not feel that they should take over for various reasons - injury, etc; they they waive their entitlement and the other AR takes over. The important factor is get the match finished. However, having arrange another appointment after this one, is not a valid reason to stand aside. The FA would take dim view (especially if the later match was of a lower standing, i.e. a juniors match).
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If the FA don't want a referee asking for an easier time because they have matches on consecutive days, they shouldn't give a 70+ year old official who has explicitly said he doesn't want matches on consecutive days two games in a row. As with many things in refereeing, this just comes down to a shortage - he's happy to line and observe consecutively so keeps the dates open, but they aren't used properly because there's no one else to do the job.

lincs22 said:
What you have to remember @GraemeS is that who does bench side is your choice, we are talking about who takes over and the League rules.
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Of course, but the point previously made remains - seemingly the only people who know those aren't automatically the same person are the (at a guess) 20-50 people who have read this thread. To every other referee I've ever worked with in the Step 4 to Step 7 kind of region, that's not a distinction that's been made. The AR on the bench side is the one with the fancy flag and the one who takes out whistles and keeps a full match record in case they step into the middle. I've never once been told "X is bench side, Y is on the other line but is Senior". And by these rules that have now appeared, that definitely should have happened at some point!
 
Per the SCOR rules which applies to Step7 and below.

"(B) In the event of the non-appearance of the appointed referee the appointed senior assistant referee shall take charge and a substitute assistant referee appointed by the competing Teams."
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Whereas the Step 3 to 6 Standardised rules state:

"In the event of any of the Match Officials appointed for a match not being in attendance at the match or becoming unable to complete the match it shall be completed under the control of the remaining Match Officials unless the competing Clubs are able to agree upon a substitute who is acceptable to the Match Referee; should the appointed Match Referee fail to appear then the senior Assistant Referee must take charge"
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So, anybody who doesn't know hasn't read the league rules....
 
lincs22 said:
Per the SCOR rules which applies to Step7 and below.



Whereas the Step 3 to 6 Standardised rules state:



So, anybody who doesn't know hasn't read the league rules....
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None of which defines "Senior" AR.

Again, in my experience, the one with the fancy flag and on the bench side has always been considered Senior. "You'll be Senior today" and "You'll be bench side today" are simply two different ways of saying the same thing to every referee and AR I've encountered.
 
GraemeS said:
None of which defines "Senior" AR.

Again, in my experience, the one with the fancy flag and on the bench side has always been considered Senior. "You'll be Senior today" and "You'll be bench side today" are simply two different ways of saying the same thing to every referee and AR I've encountered.
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Interesting how variances occur. You have never come across senior on non-bench side, yet twice already this season when I have asked as the observer "Who is lining which side?" I have been told "A is senior, but B will be bench-side as A has recent history with one of the managers. A will come on if I can't continue"
 
ChasObserverRefDeveloper said:
Interesting how variances occur. You have never come across senior on non-bench side, yet twice already this season when I have asked as the observer "Who is lining which side?" I have been told "A is senior, but B will be bench-side as A has recent history with one of the managers. A will come on if I can't continue"
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I suppose I can see exceptional circumstances where that might be the case, or where you explicitly want to give a young AR experience on bench side. But even so, you're highlighting a situation where the exception is the case, and where that has to be explicitly laid out.

In the vast majority of cases, you ask "who's which side?" and you'll still get an answer of either "X is bench side" OR "X is Senior", with the other half of that just being assumed.

It's even there in your question! You could ask "Who's which side and who will be senior?", but you don't - you ask half the question and assume the rest follows unless explicitly told otherwise.
 
GraemeS said:
I suppose I can see exceptional circumstances where that might be the case, or where you explicitly want to give a young AR experience on bench side. But even so, you're highlighting a situation where the exception is the case, and where that has to be explicitly laid out.

In the vast majority of cases, you ask "who's which side?" and you'll still get an answer of either "X is bench side" OR "X is Senior", with the other half of that just being assumed.

It's even there in your question! You could ask "Who's which side and who will be senior?", but you don't - you ask half the question and assume the rest follows unless explicitly told otherwise.
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The reason I ask "Who is which side?" is that I can then prepare my documents for the game.
As an observer I see a mix of specialists and non-specialists.
As an observer I don't know who is senior and don't need to know.
MOAS doesn't indicate that either, as if there is a change of official the new name slots in to the space vacated by the original official
In 20 observations this season, 2 referees have chosen to explain their rationale.
So my point, based on all of that, is that referees are able to decide which AR goes where - no binding convention.
 
Currently have a couple of refs this way who by default put senior on the non-dugout side. Rationale: if there has to be a change then the juniour is already on dugouts and he then doesn't have to traipse across the pitch as well as take up new position of dugouts.
 
JamesL said:
Currently have a couple of refs this way who by default put senior on the non-dugout side. Rationale: if there has to be a change then the juniour is already on dugouts and he then doesn't have to traipse across the pitch as well as take up new position of dugouts.
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Seems a pretty tenuous reason tbh
 
GraemeS said:
Of course, but the point previously made remains - seemingly the only people who know those aren't automatically the same person are the (at a guess) 20-50 people who have read this thread. To every other referee I've ever worked with in the Step 4 to Step 7 kind of region, that's not a distinction that's been made. The AR on the bench side is the one with the fancy flag and the one who takes out whistles and keeps a full match record in case they step into the middle. I've never once been told "X is bench side, Y is on the other line but is Senior". And by these rules that have now appeared, that definitely should have happened at some point!
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It is written in competition rules of every single league in the country, it has to be as it is part of SCoR.

As for who is the senior AR, I would have thought that was pretty obvious as refereeing works on promotion and reclassification. If one is L6 and the other L7 then by definition the L6 is senior as they have been promoted. Gets a bit more complicated when someone has got up to L4 or higher and then gone back to L5, but still not exactly rocket science.
 
I would proactively ask my ARs if they have had any recent problems with either of the benches, and if they had then I'd try to keep them away.

Otherwise senior would always be bench side, with the checked flag, and junior AR far side with the plain flag. Unless, and I don't think this happens that much these days, the home club had put the flag next to the ARs names in the program.
 
RustyRef said:
It is written in competition rules of every single league in the country, it has to be as it is part of SCoR.

As for who is the senior AR, I would have thought that was pretty obvious as refereeing works on promotion and reclassification. If one is L6 and the other L7 then by definition the L6 is senior as they have been promoted. Gets a bit more complicated when someone has got up to L4 or higher and then gone back to L5, but still not exactly rocket science.
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See my post #44. SCOR and similar hint at some of the duties or the Senior AR, but they don't define who that is.
 
GraemeS said:
See my post #44. SCOR and similar hint at some of the duties or the Senior AR, but they don't define who that is.
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I don't know if you are deliberately being obtuse, as this is really, really straight forward. An L4 is more senior than an L5, who is more senior than an L6, who is more senior than an L7. If the ARs are the same level then the senior is who has been at that level for the most amount of time.

You are trying to create an issue when there simply isn't one.
 
I'm not being obtuse, but this stuff isn't taught and counting years isn't how it works in reality as far as I've seen.

If two ARs are the same level (and sometimes even ignoring this), the ref will either make a call based on who they know/trust better, ask the ARs to choose between them, or toss a coin. The idea that someone would be senior but also on the junior line is unusual at best and as clearly highlighted in this thread, news to a good number of knowledgeable and smart forum members.

You're telling me this is "wrong", which is fine. But this is yet another example of referee authorities completely failing to provide clear and accessible guidance on what they expect, then hurling out suspensions seemingly at random when their obscure rules aren't followed.

It's obvious here because we've seen the guidance @ASM posted, but that's the first time I've ever seen that. If this information matters, it should be provided the day we qualify, or at worst, the day we get L5 and are likely to start leading teams of 3. Not posted with no sourcing or citations basically by chance on a niche forum years after reaching that level.
 
GraemeS said:
I'm not being obtuse, but this stuff isn't taught and counting years isn't how it works in reality as far as I've seen.

If two ARs are the same level (and sometimes even ignoring this), the ref will either make a call based on who they know/trust better, ask the ARs to choose between them, or toss a coin. The idea that someone would be senior but also on the junior line is unusual at best and as clearly highlighted in this thread, news to a good number of knowledgeable and smart forum members.

You're telling me this is "wrong", which is fine. But this is yet another example of referee authorities completely failing to provide clear and accessible guidance on what they expect, then hurling out suspensions seemingly at random when their obscure rules aren't followed.

It's obvious here because we've seen the guidance @ASM posted, but that's the first time I've ever seen that. If this information matters, it should be provided the day we qualify, or at worst, the day we get L5 and are likely to start leading teams of 3. Not posted with no sourcing or citations basically by chance on a niche forum years after reaching that level.
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It isn't taught on the basic course as newly qualified referees are unlikely to be quickly working in teams of 3. There's enough information to be taking on board as it is without overloading them with additional information that they will probably have forgotten by the time they need it.

Sometimes you just need to use common sense rather than needing to be spoon fed everything. Competition rules are crystal clear what happens if the referee becomes incapacitated, and I fail to see how anyone can be confused about why a L5 is more senior to an L6, L6 to an L7, etc. If they are both L5 then you just go with who has been at that or a higher level for the longest amount of time.
 
Back in my day - when I gave a **** and could be arsed - I'd ask the "junior" lino to be bench side, and the senior far. Logic was, if I went down, senior would replace me, and it didn't need any change to notekeeping on the bench side. Probably total cobblers these days.
 
Max2 said:
Back in my day - when I gave a **** and could be arsed - I'd ask the "junior" lino to be bench side, and the senior far. Logic was, if I went down, senior would replace me, and it didn't need any change to notekeeping on the bench side. Probably total cobblers these days.
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More Precisely what I said earlier ... Tenuous apparently but with 2 experienced refs especially it kind of makes sense.
 
The scenario I had only a few weeks ago, referee incapacitated after 20 minutes, other AR was bench side & senior, albeit we are both L5. Interestingly the stand in club AR was offered up by away team, so he monitored his ’own side’s’ back four which was bench side, I stayed put the other side. Second half the home side found a qualified referee, affiliated to their club so he stayed bench side in 2H. Referee needed treatment so could not stay as 4th official, so we decided referee would manage substitutions. After all that ended 0-0, 22+ handshakes!
 
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