Advice from a ref not involved in match

[micky2001]

Not something that has happened personally, but I thought I’d ask.

Let’s assume you’re at a tournament or a public pitch and there is a match on straight after yours so the teams and the ref are standing by.

You have a mass confrontation or other serious match event e.g. off the ball incident. Would you take the advice of the referee standing at the side of he saw something and advised you on it? Would it matter if you knew him or not?

Personally, I think I’d struggle to, even if I knew them. If it went to disciplinary etc it’s extremely difficult I assume to support the decision. Want to hear your thoughts though.

 

[Trip]

I once dismissed a player on the advice of a referee from an adjacent pitch who was watching my game during his half time. Following a penalty decision there was a mass confrontation. It was sparked by an incident I didn't see. After it calmed down the other referee beckoned me over and told me that the incident I'd missed that started the whole thing was a defender kicking an attacker, clear VC.

My reasoning was this: he is an independent observer qualified to at least the same level as me. He had a much better view. Why not take advantage of the extra pair of eyes to get the decision right?

I dismissed the defender and restarted with the penalty. Predictably, there was uproar. After the match I took the referee's name.

In the misconduct report I explained what had happened. The CFA asked for the other referee's name and I supplied it. I heard nothing more about it. I still don't really know if it was the right thing to do.

 

[RobOda]

I still don't really know if it was the right thing to do.

I'm genuinely interested in finding out if it was. Personally I'm 49-51 on this one. For one, if they're a registered referee, then fair enough. But... They aren't assigned to the game, they're not part of the officiating team for that game either, and strictly speaking should be treated as spectators for your match.

Would you take the advice of the referee standing at the side of he saw something and advised you on it? Would it matter if you knew him or not?

To answer that, probably not. Whether I knew them or not. Safer to let the decision lie with me, if I've missed it, I've missed it. I would definitely ask them for advice on why I missed the incident though, and anything I could do to identify that in the future - assuming it's not one of those you just need to be lucky with.

 

[Deleted member 3014]

I’d be inclined to go with the bystanding ref, I mean what on earth does he have to gain by lying, he’s clearly in a ref kit so I’d take what he says along with my own view & hopefully come to the right decision.

 

[Trip]

and strictly speaking should be treated as spectators for your match.

There are two big differences between a ref from an adjacent pitch and a spectator.

1. He is definitely neutral
2. He knows the laws (probably)

I think you're more likely to get the right decision by using the extra eyes. In the absence of any contradictory advice from a competent authority, I'd do the same again. But I'd be interested to hear that advice,

 

[RustyRef]

Technically you can't, it's the same as the observer cannot alert the referee if he has seen something that the referee has missed. Natural justice reached, just not necessarily in a legal way.

 

[lincs22]

Technically you can't, it's the same as the observer cannot alert the referee if he has seen something that the referee has missed. Natural justice reached, just not necessarily in a legal way.

This OP is similar to something which happened yesterday.

I was watching a match, not as an observer, but the Red 8 fouled the Green 6, careless but could have been reckless. Referee for not caution. At the set up to the free kick, there was ?something? which then had Red 8 with a cut on his nose and it bleeding. Obviously, it was a head but from the Green 6 as revenge and the players saw it.
The referee had his back to it as he was setting up the free kick. Every Red team player and official was screaming for RC for violent conduct.
The balance of probability was it happened.

Should the Referee have sent him off?

Second option, if as a League official I had seen it, should I have answered the referee is he had asked me?

NOTE: I have said to the referee that he should contact the CFA to advise them, not report it, in case there is a legal claim made by the injured party.

 

[Big Cat]

Spectator who happens to be a qualified referee = Spectator

 

[one]

Spectator who happens to be a qualified referee = Spectator

By inference
A qualified referee who happens to be a spectator = A qualified referee

 

[Big Cat]

A spectator who happens to be ref, is equivalent to a spectator who has a video recording of an incident

 

[one]

Why should it matter if they are a qualified referee or not? You don't ask them what sanction should you give or how you should restart. You ask them for the facts and what they observed. You don't have to be a qualified referee to know what a headbutt looks like or to be able to explain what you have seen.

The fact that they are a qualified referee makes them a likely neutral and reliable person. If you listen to their observations as facts then you should do so for anyone else who you trust to be neutral and reliable person (for example your partner who has come along with you to watch the game).

Personally I wouldn't make decisions based on it but I would ask them to send a report in, I would include their comments and name in my report and let the league deal with it.

 

[Big Cat]

I haven't had to deal with a mass confrontation or melee yet. I guess it could be useful to have trusted eyes to help out in such circumstances. However, for most KMI's, I see it as opening a can of worms to involve anyone other that the appointed officials

 

[Ganajin]

We had this exact problem raised at one of our refereeing seminars. The guy in charge was asked what he would do if the head of the referees' committee was standing on the touchline and informed him of an act of VC which he had missed. He said he would politely tell him that he was not part of the refereeing crew for this game and that therefore his opinion could not be taken into account.

 

[Peter Grove]

I think you're treading on very thin ice to accept the word of someone who's not a match official for the game in question. For all you know, your point about him being definitely neutral may not be true - for instance he may not have been assigned to the game you're on because he has a conflict of interest.

I'm wondering what you put in your report, since not only did you not have a clear view of the incident, you had no view of it whatsoever. You've accepted the word of someone who, whether he's dressed in refereeing gear or not, he has no legal standing in your game.

I agree with @one that you should include his observations in your report but not make decisions based on them.