Player not on teamsheet

[QuaverRef]

End of last season (my first as a referee), big game in this particular division, the loser of which would almost certainly be relegated.

Home manager comes upto me 2 mins before kick off and says that he recognises 3 opposition players that aren't signed on (shows me on full time to prove it) and he doesn't think they should be allowed to play. I approached the away manager for clarification and he said that they were in dispute with the League Secretary regarding this and offered to show me emails proving this. I just said that we will play the gan3 as this is beyond my jurisdiction and I'll report this to the league, which I did.

The away team won a tight game,in which one of the disputed players scored 2 goals so you can imagine the comments after the game. To my knowledge the away manager was telling the truth and their eligibility was proven.

The away team assistant manager disagreed with my decision not to award a penalty in the 2nd half, to the extent that he was asked to leave (I learnt some new words that day!).

My point being that player eligibility issues and my jurisdiction wasn't clear to me (never encountered such a problem) so I went with what I thought was sensible (and I think I was correct). If it happened again I would do exactly the same, play the game and report the names of the players concerned afterwards to the league. Would be interesting to know if anyone would do anything differently as despite it seemingly being the sensible course of action, the incident still remains in your mind throughout the evening

I would have been on a similar track but wouldn't have bothered to be shown a list of players names on fulltime. It would mean nothing to me unless they showed me their driving licence at the same time. I always tell them to take it up with the league, I'm there to referee not perform a register. Maybe at a push, I'd mention it in passing to the opposition manager but again, not look for proof. Once aware, they are doing it at their own risk

 

[GraemeS]

End of last season (my first as a referee), big game in this particular division, the loser of which would almost certainly be relegated.

Home manager comes upto me 2 mins before kick off and says that he recognises 3 opposition players that aren't signed on (shows me on full time to prove it) and he doesn't think they should be allowed to play. I approached the away manager for clarification and he said that they were in dispute with the League Secretary regarding this and offered to show me emails proving this. I just said that we will play the gan3 as this is beyond my jurisdiction and I'll report this to the league, which I did.

The away team won a tight game,in which one of the disputed players scored 2 goals so you can imagine the comments after the game. To my knowledge the away manager was telling the truth and their eligibility was proven.

The away team assistant manager disagreed with my decision not to award a penalty in the 2nd half, to the extent that he was asked to leave (I learnt some new words that day!).

My point being that player eligibility issues and my jurisdiction wasn't clear to me (never encountered such a problem) so I went with what I thought was sensible (and I think I was correct). If it happened again I would do exactly the same, play the game and report the names of the players concerned afterwards to the league. Would be interesting to know if anyone would do anything differently as despite it seemingly being the sensible course of action, the incident still remains in your mind throughout the evening

I think you're exactly right here - as I've said previously, player eligibility is not your problem. If the manager wants to risk playing people who might later be found ineligible, that's his own risk to take.

 

[Ciley Myrus]

I have not read every post, so sorry if its been covered, but, do the LOTG not state that the referee "Allows no unauthorised persons to enter the field of play"

Someone who is not on the team line, cannot surely be an authorised person????

So going back to my never gonna happen example of Ronaldo lining up at kick off (delete Ronaldo for a player who you simply know is not listed), then, by allowing him to play and reporting it later, you are not sticking to "allows no unauthorised persons to enter the field of play"

 

[one]

Someone who is not on the team line, cannot surely be an authorised person????

How do you determine if a person is on the team line?

Its all good if they admit it but what if they claim to be a person but the opposition says otherwise.

 

[Ciley Myrus]

And again extreme, but surely the same principle, you line up to start your Sunday League adult male game and Granny Smith is in goal for the blue team.
Are we saying we we carry on, despite her clearly being female and not on the team line, and simply report it later??!!

Surely any committee would ask the question "did you not notice it was Granny Smith" and you can only answer "yes" and then the committee say "well how can she be an authorised person" ? Why did you start/carry on the game??

 

[Ciley Myrus]

How do you determine if a person is on the team line?

Its all good if they admit it but what if they claim to be a person but the opposition says otherwise.

Am working on the basis we know its Ronaldo who is playing and he is not on team sheet, the consensus seems to be we still play regardless??

 

[RustyRef]

The main area of player eligibility that referees should deal with but often don't is at penalty kicks to decide the outcome. Only those players who were on the pitch at the end of the game (or off having received treatment) can take a penalty, but lots of referees aren't enforcing this especially since the introduction of repeated subs. It isn't easy to enforce on your own, but you certainly need to try to and certainly need to make sure the teams are aware that people off the pitch at full time should stay off and can't take part. We had to replay two cup games in full last season as ineligible players took penalties, ineligible because they were a substitute at full time as they had been taken off. Meant we also had to report both referees to county.

 

[santa sangria]

The main area of player eligibility that referees should deal with but often don't is at penalty kicks to decide the outcome. Only those players who were on the pitch at the end of the game (or off having received treatment) can take a penalty, but lots of referees aren't enforcing this especially since the introduction of repeated subs. It isn't easy to enforce on your own, but you certainly need to try to and certainly need to make sure the teams are aware that people off the pitch at full time should stay off and can't take part. We had to replay two cup games in full last season as ineligible players took penalties, ineligible because they were a substitute at full time as they had been taken off. Meant we also had to report both referees to county.

When we have KFTPM in play offs and finals in leagues with rolling subs then we make it clear to the coaches they can choose any 11 players (10+1) to be in the centre circle for the pens.

(I am aware repeated subs is different from rolling)

 

[RustyRef]

When we have KFTPM in play offs and finals in leagues with rolling subs then we make it clear to the coaches they can choose any 11 players (10+1) to be in the centre circle for the pens.

(I am aware repeated subs is different from rolling)

But that is contrary to law 10 … ?!

With the exception of a substitute for a goalkeeper who is unable to continue, only players who are on the field of play or are temporarily off the field of play (injury, adjusting equipment etc.) at the end of the match are eligible to take kicks

 

[santa sangria]

But that is contrary to law 10 … ?!

Spirit of the game at grassroots. Common sense.

Much easier to handle. Also possibly the only realistic way to handle if it is a hobby league final with no ARs. Imagine you have two teams of 18 at the final whistle reaching for the their bags and water bottles after 90 (well, 70) mins of air shots and ro-ro subs... it's daft to try and police the 22 that were on the pitch at the exact moment of the final whistle.

 

[RustyRef]

Spirit of the game at grassroots. Common sense.

Much easier to handle. Also possibly the only realistic way to handle if it is a hobby league final with no ARs. Imagine you have two teams of 18 at the final whistle reaching for the their bags and water bottles after 90 (well, 70) mins of air shots and ro-ro subs... it's daft to try and police the 22 that were on the pitch at the exact moment of the final whistle.

Not sure I agree with that. A team's worst four or five penalty takers might be the defenders, if they law is applied properly they can't avoid them potentially having to take one without subbing them off when play is ongoing. Yet not applying the law means that they can use their best 10 penalty takers, even potentially if one or more of them haven't even set foot onto the pitch.

 

[santa sangria]

Not sure I agree with that. A team's worst four or five penalty takers might be the defenders, if they law is applied properly they can't avoid them potentially having to take one without subbing them off when play is ongoing. Yet not applying the law means that they can use their best 10 penalty takers, even potentially if one or more of them haven't even set foot onto the pitch.

That is true. But it’s the same for both teams and we are talking about relaxed hobby leagues. If a team has ten best penalty takers that would be a miracle.

 

[Ben448844]

In my example, eligibility/authorisation is disputed by both teams

I have not read every post, so sorry if its been covered, but, do the LOTG not state that the referee "Allows no unauthorised persons to enter the field of play"

Someone who is not on the team line, cannot surely be an authorised person????

So going back to my never gonna happen example of Ronaldo lining up at kick off (delete Ronaldo for a player who you simply know is not listed), then, by allowing him to play and reporting it later, you are not sticking to "allows no unauthorised persons to enter the field of play"

 

[Ben448844]

I'm afraid I had no choice, it was thrust in front of me before he even said a word! I told them that I'd report it and that they need to take it up with the League accordingly and that we'll play the game as planned.

I would have been on a similar track but wouldn't have bothered to be shown a list of players names on fulltime. It would mean nothing to me unless they showed me their driving licence at the same time. I always tell them to take it up with the league, I'm there to referee not perform a register. Maybe at a push, I'd mention it in passing to the opposition manager but again, not look for proof. Once aware, they are doing it at their own risk

 

[Ben448844]

Interesting topic for me as I had this in one of my first senior match. To complicate matters further it had absolutely wanged it down in extra time and it was already a muddy pitch. Both penalty areas weren't in good condition but the pitch next to us had finished their match in normal time so I decided that it was common sense to have the penalty shoot out on the opposing pitch (at the request of both skippers). Is that allowed under law? As for the penalties, at the toss one captain asked if it had to be the players on the pitch who took the pens (rolling subs), I said that I can only be honest and that I don't know and they were honest and didn't know either. I said that we'd just allow the 22 on the pitch to take them but I really didn't know. This is dog and duck level and played in excellent spirit so there was no problems,this post just jogged my memory and it would be interesting to know how others more knowledgeable would approach this situation

Should the situation arise again then I'd be well prepared but for one of my first senior matches this was alot to take in

The main area of player eligibility that referees should deal with but often don't is at penalty kicks to decide the outcome. Only those players who were on the pitch at the end of the game (or off having received treatment) can take a penalty, but lots of referees aren't enforcing this especially since the introduction of repeated subs. It isn't easy to enforce on your own, but you certainly need to try to and certainly need to make sure the teams are aware that people off the pitch at full time should stay off and can't take part. We had to replay two cup games in full last season as ineligible players took penalties, ineligible because they were a substitute at full time as they had been taken off. Meant we also had to report both referees to county.

 

[Tino Best]

You can make sure the 11 who were on the pitch are the PK takers in a shoot out without NARs . I have done it twice. No excuse on this one it can be managed.

 

[one]

The main area of player eligibility that referees should deal with but often don't is at penalty kicks to decide the outcome.

I am surprised to hear this. Down here every season there is a knockout (championship) finals series played between the top teams of the premiership table. These games are more 'prestigious' than normal season games and get at least one NAR. Every comp except the 1st div of open age is unlimited interchange (returning substitutes). KFTPM laws strictly applied down to lowest divisions of juniors. AR1s are advised to remind managers of the "no substitution after the full time whistle rule" at the start of the game and with a few minutes left in a drawn game. I don't remember this rule being breached once.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

There's no possible way the referee knows which player is eligible to be nominated on a teamsheet - things that affect this may be transfers, whether registration is finalised, suspensions, age, matches played in other teams, and god knows what else. Impossible for the referee to be across this.

What we can enforce are rules around the teamsheet - eg a player not on the teamsheet can't play. We can enforce that. There are likely to be a few other rules too - eg can names be added after kickoff if they have fewer than 11? Ref needs to be across this. We're not in a position to enforce whether the player should be on the teamsheet - but if you believe they're doing the wrong thing (eg you're pretty sure a player is suspended), then report it.

Of course, a player not on the sheet may still make it into the pitch - report it.

 

[RustyRef]

I am surprised to hear this. Down here every season there is a knockout (championship) finals series played between the top teams of the premiership table. These games are more 'prestigious' than normal season games and get at least one NAR. Every comp except the 1st div of open age is unlimited interchange (returning substitutes). KFTPM laws strictly applied down to lowest divisions of juniors. AR1s are advised to remind managers of the "no substitution after the full time whistle rule" at the start of the game and with a few minutes left in a drawn game. I don't remember this rule being breached once.

The fact you've mentioned AR1 here explains this. In the vast majority of games in England there are no ARs, so the referee has to enforce it. As I'm sure you will agree that is far from easy.

 

[Peter Grove]

Surely the answer to the original conundrum described in the OP is in post #16. As @one stated there, Law 3 says that:

Anyone not named on the team list as a player, substitute or team official is an outside agent.

Taken together with:

If, after a goal is scored, the referee realises, before play restarts, an extra person was on the field of play when the goal was scored:
• the referee must disallow the goal if the extra person was: [...]
• an outside agent who interfered with play unless a goal results as outlined above in ‘extra persons on the field of play’; play is restarted with a dropped ball
• the referee must allow the goal if the extra person was: [...]
• an outside agent who did not interfere with play

It's not a question of player eligibility, it's the simple fact that (as confirmed by both managers, including the manager of the team scoring the goal) an outside agent was on the field of play when a goal was scored. So the referee just has to decide whether this outside agent has interfered with play or not.