Arsenal v Sunderland

[Ryanj91]

No VAR and the ref was brilliant.

Two penalty calls spot on. No VAR to rely on and he did it - all on his own.

Great control of the game when Sunderland lost their heads and started flying into tackles.

Linos were equally as good - all tight calls were correct from memory.

Does VAR make the prem referees too reliant on technology? Interesting thought

 

[ladbroke8745]

I have thought that many times.

I genuinely feel they would have given the decisions in games that they've let carry on..
For instance in a recent Brentford game, a penalty was awarded via VAR but in real time I feel it would've been given without VAR having a look. Player was kicked in the face in front of him.
But with VAR he allowed them to "make sure" before giving it.

Thats just one of many decisions I feel could easily be given.
Same with offsides.

 

[RustyRef]

I'm still not sure, as in the last of the PL match days there were a record number of penalties given and I think I am right in saying they were almost all given by the referee and only validated by VAR.

Rob Jones is a very good referee who I have seen live many times, the only surprise for me is why he has had so few PL opportunities since being promoted.

 

[one]

I don't have the stats but I think stats will back up referees relying on VAR overall.

We all thought the total number of handball penalties had increased because of VAR (I think last year there was a thread and debate). Stats backed that up. It was all over the media an then suddenly it was mitigated (supposedly after a directive to VARs).

The stats we need now is total number of send off's per and post VAR. if they are roughly the same (and I think they are), given there are a good % of send offs now are after VAR, it means referees original send off decisions have reduced (because they rely on VAR).

Similarly with penalty, don't look at just the last few games. If you think referees continue giving penalties the same as pre-VAR, the only outcome with VAR is that total should increase. This has not happened. The only conclusion is that referees give less penalties and rely on VAR to overturn any oopsies.

Keep in mind there is hardly ever a reversal of an on field red or a penalty given by ref.

 

[Big Cat]

I don't have the stats but I think stats will back up referees relying on VAR overall.

We all thought the total number of handball penalties had increased because of VAR (I think last year there was a thread and debate). Stats backed that up. It was all over the media an then suddenly it was mitigated (supposedly after a directive to VARs).

The stats we need now is total number of send off's per and post VAR. if they are roughly the same (and I think they are), given there are a good % of send offs now are after VAR, it means referees original send off decisions have reduced (because they rely on VAR).

Similarly with penalty, don't look at just the last few games. If you think referees continue giving penalties the same as pre-VAR, the only outcome with VAR is that total should increase. This has not happened. The only conclusion is that referees give less penalties and rely on VAR to overturn any oopsies.

Keep in mind there is hardly ever a reversal of an on field red or a penalty given by ref.

Very much agree. It plaintively obvious. As I've said, the Refs are not incompetent, that assertion would be absurd. But the way in which VAR is being used is humiliating. It must be very mentally punishing 'sic. for Refs.' Can you imagine what it must be like to get slaughtered in public every other week? Largely, through no fault of your own?
I've said all along, 'fundamentally, I'm not against technology'. But VAR is so broken, I can't see it being fixed. It needs rebuilding pretty much from scratch

 

[RefIADad]

Very much agree. It plaintively obvious. As I've said, the Refs are not incompetent, that assertion would be absurd. But the way in which VAR is being used is humiliating. It must be very mentally punishing 'sic. for Refs.' Can you imagine what it must be like to get slaughtered in public every other week? Largely, through no fault of your own?
I've said all along, 'fundamentally, I'm not against technology'. But VAR is so broken, I can't see it being fixed. It needs rebuilding pretty much from scratch

I'm hopeful that VAR can be fixed, but I'm not optimistic. The big issue is that it's being used for subjective calls, and I'm not sure how you get around that.

For me (and I stress that this STRICTLY MY OPINION), I want to only see fouls like the examples below reversed because of VAR.
1) The Henry non-handball call against Ireland.
2) The Portugal-France game where the ball was clearly over the line (I know VAR and GLT wasn't used in that game).
3) (I think I have the teams right) the Liverpool offside against West Ham where the Liverpool player was 2-3 yards off and the AR was caught out of position.
4) The red card in the Ukraine Euro game where live action made it hard to see the play was a send-off, but VAR made it pretty plain to see.
5) The from-behind challenge on KDB in the Portugal-Belgium Euro game (wasn't a send-off on the field, but should have been an on-field review)
6) The Hummels send-off in the Dortmund-Ajax UCL game - that should have been downgraded to a yellow card.

The issue is that my "bar" is different from others' "bar". I get that different organizations will have training, etc. to determine what's a clear and obvious foul, but it's subjective. Here are some fouls that I know people were screaming for VAR to overturn, but I don't think they are clear and obvious "enough".

1) The send-off in the Spain-Switzerland match (I thought Oliver got the send-off right, others disagreed, but regardless of the on-field call I would have supported it not being overturned).
2) The Sterling penalty in the Euro semi (I didn't think it was a penalty, but there was enough doubt to not overturn it).

But the issue is that no one really knows how or why certain reviews do or don't happen. The only way I can see that changing is through the VAR-referee team communication being broadcast (or at least being available after the fact), but I'm not sure we'll get there.

There is very little doubt in my mind that VAR does result in a subconscious decision to "go soft" on sanctions and see if VAR has enough to overturn. That shouldn't be the case, but it is at the present time in my opinion.

 

[socal lurker]

Thats just one of many decisions I feel could easily be given.
Same with offsides.

I don’t think ARs are changing their decisions because of VAR- and they don’t have to. Because they are delaying the flag until after the scoring opportunity, there is no reason to not call it the way they see it. ARs get rated on accuracy.

Rs aren’t supposed to change the way they call with VAR, but it does seem pretty clear that on some types of calls they are. But they have a different incentive space than the AR as they don’t have that same delay luxury. And the change in Rs is a significant problem because it means that certain calls (e.g. send offs) aren’t happening where that is the best” decision, but the other option is not clearly and obviously wrong.

 

[PinnerPaul]

I'm hopeful that VAR can be fixed, but I'm not optimistic. The big issue is that it's being used for subjective calls, and I'm not sure how you get around that.

For me (and I stress that this STRICTLY MY OPINION), I want to only see fouls like the examples below reversed because of VAR.
1) The Henry non-handball call against Ireland.
2) The Portugal-France game where the ball was clearly over the line (I know VAR and GLT wasn't used in that game).
3) (I think I have the teams right) the Liverpool offside against West Ham where the Liverpool player was 2-3 yards off and the AR was caught out of position.
4) The red card in the Ukraine Euro game where live action made it hard to see the play was a send-off, but VAR made it pretty plain to see.
5) The from-behind challenge on KDB in the Portugal-Belgium Euro game (wasn't a send-off on the field, but should have been an on-field review)
6) The Hummels send-off in the Dortmund-Ajax UCL game - that should have been downgraded to a yellow card.

The issue is that my "bar" is different from others' "bar". I get that different organizations will have training, etc. to determine what's a clear and obvious foul, but it's subjective. Here are some fouls that I know people were screaming for VAR to overturn, but I don't think they are clear and obvious "enough".

1) The send-off in the Spain-Switzerland match (I thought Oliver got the send-off right, others disagreed, but regardless of the on-field call I would have supported it not being overturned).
2) The Sterling penalty in the Euro semi (I didn't think it was a penalty, but there was enough doubt to not overturn it).

But the issue is that no one really knows how or why certain reviews do or don't happen. The only way I can see that changing is through the VAR-referee team communication being broadcast (or at least being available after the fact), but I'm not sure we'll get there.

There is very little doubt in my mind that VAR does result in a subconscious decision to "go soft" on sanctions and see if VAR has enough to overturn. That shouldn't be the case, but it is at the present time in my opinion.

When you say 'fixed' - not sure exactly what you mean.

This is only my interpretation, but to most 'fixed' means getting everything right - as I've said before, no system/human is ever going to achieve that. As you acknowledge, subjective decisions are always going to provoke debate and be labelled 'right' by some, and 'wrong' by others.

 

[RefIADad]

When you say 'fixed' - not sure exactly what you mean.

This is only my interpretation, but to most 'fixed' means getting everything right - as I've said before, no system/human is ever going to achieve that. As you acknowledge, subjective decisions are always going to provoke debate and be labelled 'right' by some, and 'wrong' by others.

Fixed means that there is a reasonably consistent application around the world. Right now, I have no idea what different countries are doing in terms of “clear and obvious”. It’s like throwing darts. I also think the application of offside takes way too long and doesn’t take margin of error into account. Finally, reviews in general take way too long. If it takes VAR several minutes to make a decision, it’s not clear and obvious.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Fixed means that there is a reasonably consistent application around the world. Right now, I have no idea what different countries are doing in terms of “clear and obvious”. It’s like throwing darts. I also think the application of offside takes way too long and doesn’t take margin of error into account. Finally, reviews in general take way too long. If it takes VAR several minutes to make a decision, it’s not clear and obvious.

Agree, the questions are then, can those improvements be made and will they then produce a situation everyone is happy with.

I'm sceptical about both, but that's just a personal opinion.