A&H

Ex Pros becoming referees

lincs22

lincs22

Supply League Observer
Staff member
Observer/Tutor
This old topic has come up again, via Howard Webb.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64047311

Yes, it could be a great idea but in practical terms -
  • At what level do they start?
  • Are Step 5/6 clubs willing to be the "Guinea pig" for these players, given the abuse, etc that have been showing to referees going though the current schemes?
  • Will they be paid from the start, or will they need new jobs and referee in their spare time (like the rest of us)
  • Will they need to become AR's or fast-track only to become referees?
In real terms, will they want to do it? There already are so many scheme to help ex-pros become referees, they just aren't interested.
 
The Referee Store
If it was such a great idea then they would be lining up to do it. Wouldn't they want to "fix" refereeing to get the game sorted out?

They know it's a **** job, they know that they treated referees terribly and that they would cope heaps of abuse and don't want to do it.
 
It’s a good news story for the press.

Agree with the above. Of course, ex-pros don’t want to referee. It’s like asking an ex-pro player to become a goalkeeper cubed!

Ex-pro is the misleading part. It’s ex-high level youth players that are the potential goldmine. 16-21 year olds that have played to the highest levels, without crippling injuries, not able to keep it up for whatever reason, ideally the brightest/smartest transitioning to work or higher education. That’s the group to target.

Give them a welcoming, professional environment with training, competition, guidance, path and a secondary income.

The problem is that PGMOL, EPL, UEFA, FIFA are complicit in demonstrating an abusive environment towards referees in public at the highest levels that contributes to anti-referee sentiment throughout grassroots football. IMHO this is creates a big psychological barrier for any experienced footballer.
 
I'm massively in favour of fast-tracking ex-players
The standard of Refereeing ain't good enough at any level for lots of reasons, so change is needed

My view, is that once a Referee has made it to a certain level, they don't really improve any further. There's hardly any difference in ability between SG1 Refs and say... Level 1 Refs. Perhaps we could go lower than Level 1 with that debate

Point being, in my experience, Refereeing is about improving as we get promoted, but only to a point (after which improvement is barely detectable). Most of the progression experience is about adjustment such that the Ref can apply the same skills, albeit in ever more demanding arenas. So it's about adjustment to the pressure and performing on the bigger stage
Ex-Pro players have already been adjusted. Hence, it will take a lot less time for them to cope with the intimidation of big crowds and big names

Not to mention, I do also believe lots of playing experience can only be advantageous and any argument to the contrary is absurd IMO

Now I don't really care if my views are unpopular in Refereeing circles. What I've seen since becoming a Referee, is a cavernous divide between Referees and the wider 'football community' and i can see equal fault on both sides (quite often through attitudes on the Forum). This idea of ex-players becoming elite Referees would likely serve to improve relations between the two

And as for this, 'they don't know the Laws' business... Most of it is about foul recognition (and the bloke sat next me in the pub can do that), communication, fitness and having football in the blood. It's not about knowing daft Laws to pass tests... Laws are not fit for purpose and not applied anyway. So there you have it

One other point... All pro-Refs are pro-VAR because it extends their careers indefinitely. Aside from that, Webb comes across well in the interview
 
lincs22 said:
This old topic has come up again, via Howard Webb.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64047311

Yes, it could be a great idea but in practical terms -
  • At what level do they start?
  • Are Step 5/6 clubs willing to be the "Guinea pig" for these players, given the abuse, etc that have been showing to referees going though the current schemes?
  • Will they be paid from the start, or will they need new jobs and referee in their spare time (like the rest of us)
  • Will they need to become AR's or fast-track only to become referees?
In real terms, will they want to do it? There already are so many scheme to help ex-pros become referees, they just aren't interested.
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If ex pros from the 20th century and the top 2/3 levels of the professional game, I don't think the money/job thing is an issue! :)

More seriously, IF financially secure for life, why would many bother?

You would have thought coaching/media work much more appealing.
 
PinnerPaul said:
If ex pros from the 20th century and the top 2/3 levels of the professional game, I don't think the money/job thing is an issue! :)

More seriously, IF financially secure for life, why would many bother?

You would have thought coaching/media work much more appealing.
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I think some players would do it, just to stay in the game in some capacity
I'd say Refereeing is a reasonable substitute for playing and I'm really pleased I took up the mantle
It definitely would not suit high profile players however. They would be tagged with bias. EFL or National League players would be a best fit
 
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Big Cat said:
I think some players would do it, just to stay in the game in some capacity
I'd say Refereeing is a reasonable substitute for playing and I'm really pleased I took up the mantle
It definitely would not suit high profile players however. They would be tagged with bias. EFL or National League players would be a best fit
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Yep, all good points - especially now that I've read the full article!:oops::p

He admits himself, its not going to be those who have had a full high profile career, but maybe those whose careers have been cut short possibly by injury, or relative lack of ability.

Good to hear he wants to simplify and speed up VAR, but then again, many have promised much and failed to deliver where VAR process is concerned!;)
 
The press are only all over this because someone said that Szymon Marciniak had been a professional footballer, whereas in reality he was an amateur footballer, very much a case of someone saying something incorrect and it spreading. I know that Howard Webb has re-stoked it today, but since the WC final there have been lots of media discussions about ex-players being needed as referees.

There's no need for any special fast tracking with the new promotion system, if they are dedicated enough and good enough they could start at L7 and be at L3 in next to no time. However, there is absolutely no evidence that ex-players make better referees, so whether they would indeed be good enough is very much open to debate. I know of a few ex semi-pro players who have gone into refereeing and none of them have set the world on fire, so struggling to see why someone playing a couple of steps higher would do any better.

And of course that leads onto the golden question: why on earth would they want to do it? We can certainly rule out players who have played in the top two divisions as they will be financially secure, and the thought of even going out to blow a whistle would be abhorrent to them. Even League 1 players, who are used to picking up a few thousand a week, are going to turn their nose up at the fees on offer in the likes of the National League. Then we have fitness, how many players who have retired after long careers are going to want to have to carry on training to be able to pass refereeing fitness tests and be fit enough for games? You are really looking at players who have retired young, either through injury or rejection, and before they had a chance to earn any amount of significant money. That's quite a small target audience.
 
They should be identified and start refereeing while still playing, and could be ready to go to level 4 as soon as they retire from playing.

Academy footballers ideal candidates as well.
 
bester said:
They should be identified and start refereeing while still playing, and could be ready to go to level 4 as soon as they retire from playing.

Academy footballers ideal candidates as well.
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Good idea in principle, but can't see their clubs being especially happy with that. There's no way they would be allowed to go out and referee on a Sunday having played the day before, the sports scientists just wouldn't allow it. Same applies to midweek games.
 
Of course, in addition to motivating ex-players to pick up the whistle, there is one other massive problem....
Ex-players or not, they'll all have to Referee according to the single creed observers demand and all referees are utterly stifled by the crap instructions from their employers, so yes.... maybe they wouldn't be any better than what we've got
Don't get me wrong here... there are some outstanding individuals out there at all levels, so my assertion that standards ain't good enough in general, is a complex discussion
 
bester said:
They should be identified and start refereeing while still playing, and could be ready to go to level 4 as soon as they retire from playing.

Academy footballers ideal candidates as well.
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Up here in the real north the top level u17s provide “match supervisors” for u7-u9 matches - this give them an extra dimension to their football knowledge, some useful extra skills, pocket money, and an intro to refereeing.
 
I am thinking the start is going to be difficult. I played step 5 for a decade+ then took up the whistle, and remember the difference in playing to refereeing, playing you get stuck in, aggressive, win at all costs mentality etc, a totally different mindset to refereeing, calm, impartial, take your time etc. So on this basis, imo, you need 1 to 2 years refereeing at step 7, being paid £30 a game. I can’t see how you can go in to step 5 any earlier. So are you paying the ex pros in their early years, who is prepared to fund that with, as RustyRef says it is not proven they will make elite referees anyway.

For me, a pipe dream, best intentions, but glosses over the fundamental issue, referees are overly criticised over 50/50 subjective decisions & are fair game for abuse across grass roots football, media & throughout the professional game.

Simple solution, respect the referee, as happens in every other sport, rugby, cricket, tennis……..
 
DJIC said:
I am thinking the start is going to be difficult. I played step 5 for a decade+ then took up the whistle, and remember the difference in playing to refereeing, playing you get stuck in, aggressive, win at all costs mentality etc, a totally different mindset to refereeing, calm, impartial, take your time etc. So on this basis, imo, you need 1 to 2 years refereeing at step 7, being paid £30 a game. I can’t see how you can go in to step 5 any earlier. So are you paying the ex pros in their early years, who is prepared to fund that with, as RustyRef says it is not proven they will make elite referees anyway.

For me, a pipe dream, best intentions, but glosses over the fundamental issue, referees are overly criticised over 50/50 subjective decisions & are fair game for abuse across grass roots football, media & throughout the professional game.

Simple solution, respect the referee, as happens in every other sport, rugby, cricket, tennis……..
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That's something I've said before. I've observed so many L7 referees that are ex or current players and they start out refereeing like they would want to be refereed. They end up letting way too much go, play far too many advantages, and often have real problems with match control.

Once they have learned the basics, and realised that refereeing is nothing like playing, they start to improve, but it takes time. To suggest that a retired player could go straight into senior refereeing after retiring is an absolute nonsense. Just ask any coach or manager who has tried to referee the inter-squad game, it often kicks off even though they are teammates. That's why they get qualified referees in to do those types of games.
 
DJIC said:
I am thinking the start is going to be difficult. I played step 5 for a decade+ then took up the whistle, and remember the difference in playing to refereeing, playing you get stuck in, aggressive, win at all costs mentality etc, a totally different mindset to refereeing, calm, impartial, take your time etc. So on this basis, imo, you need 1 to 2 years refereeing at step 7, being paid £30 a game. I can’t see how you can go in to step 5 any earlier. So are you paying the ex pros in their early years, who is prepared to fund that with, as RustyRef says it is not proven they will make elite referees anyway.

For me, a pipe dream, best intentions, but glosses over the fundamental issue, referees are overly criticised over 50/50 subjective decisions & are fair game for abuse across grass roots football, media & throughout the professional game.

Simple solution, respect the referee, as happens in every other sport, rugby, cricket, tennis……..
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Step 5 is easier than a challenging Sunday League game IMHO. Quite a bit easier assuming basic the ref has basic experience and competency and won't be overawed by 50-500 or so onlookers
Although, yes, any ref would still need some County Level experience before jumping into Step 5. Paying spectators and a tariff on the games means you couldn't have an ex-player schooling in public (this is a phrase used in horse racing for when a horse is not ready for the racetrack)
 
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Big Cat said:
Step 5 is easier than a challenging Sunday League game IMHO. Quite a bit easier assuming basic the ref has basic experience and competency and won't be overawed by 50-500 or so onlookers
Although, yes, any ref would still need some County Level experience before jumping into Step 5. Paying spectators and a tariff on the games means you couldn't have an ex-player schooling in public (this is a phrase used in horse racing for when a horse is not ready for the racetrack)
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Don't agree at all. Some of my hardest games have been at step 5, and in the same supply league as you, a referee with just basic experience would be way out of their depth. Not in every game, but certainly in the more challenging ones. I've also observed new L4 referees on that competition that have really, really struggled. I've also coached a L4 on that league (before I was an observer on it) who had a row with the away chairman during the game by the corner flag, abandoned it, and then immediately quit refereeing. That was an interesting phone call after the game 😂

Sunday League is an entirely different kind of challenge, much less discipline and general unruly behaviour. At step 5, and even more so steps 3 and 4, you have players that have played at higher levels and they will absolutely jump on an inexperienced referee and be in his ear the whole game. They just don't have that level of footballing intelligence at Sunday league. I've refereed ex-Premier League players and they are a different animal. Junior Lewis when he was at Welwyn Garden City, openly told me that he was impressed he couldn't manipulate me like he could the younger referees. And I sent off James Scowcroft whilst he was playing for Bury Town for a very sneaky off the ball elbow that I was very lucky to see, he couldn't believe he had been caught out as he was used to getting away with it at that level. They might not be the brightest, but when it comes to football intelligence they are steps ahead of the majority of grass roots players. A new referee, even an ex-senior player, won't be able to cope with that.
 
Big Cat said:
Step 5 is easier than a challenging Sunday League game IMHO. Quite a bit easier assuming basic the ref has basic experience and competency and won't be overawed by 50-500 or so onlookers
Although, yes, any ref would still need some County Level experience before jumping into Step 5. Paying spectators and a tariff on the games means you couldn't have an ex-player schooling in public (this is a phrase used in horse racing for when a horse is not ready for the racetrack)
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I’m surprised you think that, a competent level 5 county referee can easily deal with a tough Sunday morning match, administer cards, abandon the game, nobody is watching, the following week nobody cares. Lose control of a step 5 match, abandon it, up to 200 spectator, managers who think they are in the premier league. Repercussions for weeks, your reputation as a competent referee gone.
 
Disagree with the Sunday League commet TBH. I went straight into Sunday League as a 33 year old who'd played all his life. Like @RustyRef says I reffed it like I was still a player for months before the penny dropped. I got 1 county league game before then doing a step 6 game (and was observed!). I could cope because I'd done 200 adult games so it wasn't so bad but it's still a jump. I'd also done the 35+ leagues in and around Sheffield/Barnsley/Rotherham area which I'm adamant that the top sides were better than any step 5/6 team I've done since as a level 4. Most were ex pros and they were very used to jumping all over refs.















The problem for ex pros is theres the skills gap between whatever level they start at and the level they will be wanting to achieve and there's simply no way of getting to the end successfully without going through years of challenging games. Fast tracking will expose them and embarrass them on tv/social.media and they will most likely quit.
 
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