A&H

Handball mess up

McRef

McRef

New Member
Level 5 Referee
So had a bit of strange one yesterday and wondered what others would do?

mis-hit shoot loops over the keeper and towards an empty net. Defender rushes back to the line. Was bouncing at an awkward height. Player very deliberately tries to throw his shoulder at the ball to hit it away.... but as he rotates to hit it out away from goal he slightly mis-times and the ball hits him on the very top of his arm instead of his shoulder.

What would people do?

I'm curious to see what others would have done. More information can be provided if I haven't been clear enough.
 
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I guess this is impossible to say without video...

Why on earth didn't he try heading or kicking it away though?
 
I don't know. it was an awkward height and he got to it very late while it was on the goal line. Think it was just the only thing he could swing enough momentum into to get it away from goal.
 
Its a tough one. I'd argue that the players action is deliberate and he has taken the risk of striking the ball with his arm.

Really sounds like a yhtbt moment as with most but I think if a player has taken the chance of swinging his arm near the ball thats deliberate enough for me and I think I would award the penalty.

The law says
Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the
ball with the hand or arm.
The following must be considered:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)

I think the wording here is helpful for this scenario. Its not he means to handle it... it is a deliberate act that results in a handling of the ball - your description I feel meets the criteria paticularly when considering the movement of the players hand or arm towards the ball. The height and awkwardness of such is not really a consideration here imo.
 
That's the interesting thing that makes me think I shouldn't have given the pen.

He deliberately tried to clear the ball with his shoulder, but it clearly hit his arm and no one argued when I gave the pen.

The more I think about it he never intentionally handballed it.

I also bottled it and only gave a yellow.

Balls-up all round..... live and learn I guess!!
 
I'm a little disappointed in myself but it's definitely a learning point.

More so the fact that the defending team didnt really complain and the subsequent penalty was a turning point in the game. It was an equaliser and they went on to win 4-2.
 
Handballs are horrible, I think they are the hardest call to make in a game (aside from the obvious one if someone picked the ball up, wrapped it in tinsel and handed it to you)
Only ONE person knows if the act was deliberate.
You, as ref, need to judge whether you consider his act to be deliberate.
So not only do you have to assess what you see, you need to delve into his mind to see if he meant it. Tough task.

Offside etc, factually, someone is either closer to the opponents goal line blah blah blah, or they are not
 
Just read back your OP and fwiw I honestly think you have made the correct call.
 
Ciley Myrus said:
Handballs are horrible, I think they are the hardest call to make in a game (aside from the obvious one if someone picked the ball up, wrapped it in tinsel and handed it to you)
Only ONE person knows if the act was deliberate.
You, as ref, need to judge whether you consider his act to be deliberate.
So not only do you have to assess what you see, you need to delve into his mind to see if he meant it. Tough task.

Offside etc, factually, someone is either closer to the opponents goal line blah blah blah, or they are not
Click to expand...
A very good point but i dont think he has to mean it myself. I think that's a misconception. The only requirement is a deliberate act. I think in this case if he has deliberately thrown his shoulder/arm at the ball and struck the ball with the arm then thats the handball requirement met in terms of what the law says... not meaning to go down the old harvard school of law business but this ultimately what it says in law should always form the basis of our decision making.
There is nothing about intent in the law. There are some considerations to give.. distance, speed, movement of hand to ball or ball to hand but intent is not one of them.
 
Deliberate or not is a tough call with many factors others have covered. Biggest issue though is you gave the HB but only a yellow - but as you said, you know it should of been red. Live and learn.
 
JamesL said:
The only requirement is a deliberate act.
Click to expand...
No, it's not - as you yourself had in an earlier post using the wording of the law, it has to be "a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm." As I read the fairly detailed description given in the OP, the player did not deliberately use the arm - he was fully intending to use the shoulder (in the referee's opinion) but it then accidentally came off his arm instead.

As a referee, if I think the player has made accidental contact with the arm while not intending to do so, I'm not giving it as a deliberate handling offence.
 
Using an example here to bring in the element of 'risk'.

A defender under absolutely no pressure is trying to chest a long ball in his own PA. He does so with his arms well wide of his body. He misreads the flight of the ball and the ball clearly strike his arm. Everyone expects a pen and a pen is the correct decision. Leaving the considerations aside for the moment, this is not "a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm." He has no reason to do this deliberately and give a penalty away. But he took an unnecessary risk and he is paying the price. In this case the "unnatural position" consideration is what determines the deliberateness of the act.

The OP is not as clear cut as my example and its a case of YHTBT. But from the description the considerations that I would use to make the decision is:
Does the player attempt to avoid the ball striking his hand/arm?
Is the hand/arm moving towards the ball or is the ball moving towards the hand/arm?
 
one said:
Leaving the considerations aside for the moment, this is not "a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm." He has no reason to do this deliberately and give a penalty away. But he took an unnecessary risk and he is paying the price.
Click to expand...
I don't see how you can say that this was not "a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm" and then go on to say it is a handling offence. That is an absolute requirement for it to be an offence. You seem to be arguing that because of the secondary consideration of a player taking a risk (which incidentally, is nowhere to be found in the Laws of the Game) you are going to ignore the primary requirement of the Law.

If you want to say that because of the way the player has deliberately taken a risk that has led to the hand/arm contacting the ball, this means it was a deliberate act according to the meaning of the law, that is one thing - but to say that something was not a deliberate act but that you're going to penalise it anyway, is just plain wrong, in my opinion.

This is akin to the argument that I sometimes see (and also disagree with) that because of an unnatural arm position alone, there is a handling offence. To me, this is totally wrong-headed thinking. The primary and absolutely inescapable requirement is that it has to be a deliberate act of using the hand or arm. All other considerations (ball to hand/hand to ball, arm position, unexpected ball etc) are only meant to be used as secondary tools in helping the referee decide whether the primary requirement was met.

It's somewhat akin to saying you're going to ignore offside position and decide on an offside offence based solely on whether the player became involved in active play. You can't just ignore the first requirement and only judge based on a secondary consideration.

Edit: Sorry, I see that you did also say that you would use arm position to judge the deliberateness of the act, which is what I was talking about. Still, to say it wasn't a deliberate act but it is an offence is the main thing I was objecting to.
 
Peter, I suppose its how you read a deliberate act of a player making contact.
It sounds to me like you are judging the players intent to handle.
It the OP he has made a deliberate act of throwing his shoulder and arm area towards the ball resulting in the use of the arm. For me that is a clear handball offence and the reason for my comment about the deliberate act being the consideration.
I respect your opinion here, it is a very grey area but, honestly, if the OPs description is accurate and I have the correct mental image of events I would penalise this act everytime.
 
It’s one of those ‘you had to be there’ moments, but, as described by the OP I would have no problem awarding the penalty and dismissing the player for DOGSO-H.

From the description it sounds like his arm was in an unnatural position, and that he moved his arm to the ball. I’m not psychic, so I have no way of knowing if he did mean to shoulder it away, so I would class it (as described in the OP) as deliberate.

The player has given you a decision to make, and after taking in what you have seen, and what the laws of the game state you have determined that in the opinion of the referee (I.e. you) he has commuted an offence punishable by a penalty kick, which you awarded. Yes, it should have been a red, but chalk it up to experience.
 
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