In or Out?

[SM]

The only real truth here is that nobody has the first idea how the future will unfold and either outcome will be disastrous/amazing to some, at least in their own minds. For most of us, I doubt a lot will change. Same old shizz, different debate.

Not apathy, more like realistic.

The only real winner after this exercise in the illusion of freedom is the banks who will either way continue to call the tune we all dance to. hmmm that should probably be a sad smilee.

 

[Charlie Jones]

agree also, us, the young generation, are the ones that will have to live with the out come and so many choose not too ... so many youngsters don't vote for elections either! I think a lot of it is they don't think its 'cool' to be interested in politics?

 

[GraemeS]

agree also, us, the young generation, are the ones that will have to live with the out come and so many choose not too ... so many youngsters don't vote for elections either! I think a lot of it is they don't think its 'cool' to be interested in politics?

There's a reason that so many policies benefit the old and rich and screw the young and poor - because the first group votes.

 

[Charlie Jones]

it is very true ... but this referendum should be aimed at the young

 

[santa sangria]

I consider myself a very intelligent person. MBA, degree,professional qualification, etc. I am voting leave, not because I am so stupid to fall for the propaganda, but because I have formed my own opinion, seen the political changes that have occurred and assessed the changes that I believe will happen will the EU finally accepts Turkey, etc. I just don't believe the EU is in any way the original intention of the Common Market we voted to join in the 1970s.

I am voting for my children, we can all look at the here and now and say it's not so bad, but in 20 years I genuinely fear we will no longer have national identity.

I once met Nigel Farage at Embankment station on my way home from work. Found him nice chap, not my sort of guy and some of his points didn't ring true to me, but I have never considered him and the general intention of the UKIP party to be racist. Nationalist - yes, but I've never heard them mention race. There is a difference.

Just my opinion.

I think this an important point.
I have voted remain.

But... I am not in favour of the inexorable march of EU integration. I think the idea that the EU only exists to keep creating stronger ties and to keep enlarging is ridiculous.

Create trade agreements with Turkey, yes. Integration with the European Union, seems daft.
Have some common economic policies that enable trade but, uncontrolled free movement of people, seems daft.
Reciprocal tax agreements for individuals but, the EU president, Juncker, was responsible for arranging the most scandalous tax avoidance deals for major corporations through Luxembourg, beyond daft, this is a real credibility problem for the whole European project, in my eyes.

What I don't understand here, on this forum, is how you are referencing this EU referendum with immigration and segregation in the UK, which is predominantly Asian in origin.

I hope that the EU big cheeses come out with some major new ideas in the next few weeks that put some common sense back into the common market.

 

[Kes]

What I don't understand here, on this forum, is how you are referencing this EU referendum with immigration and segregation in the UK, which is predominantly Asian in origin.

Nothing to do with Asian or otherwise.
The elephant in the room is Islam. Don't confuse the two.

 

[HertsFinest]

We need to sort non-eu migration out too but that's another matter.

Migration = good

Mass unskilled migration = not so

Ghettoisation of towns from one external religion or culture (nod Luton) = even less so

 

[Kes]

Based on that logic then surely UKIP should now be a serious part of the British government? The last opinion poll I saw (may well have changed by now) had leave slightly ahead, so all these people are far right and uneducated? UKIP being the only serious 'far right' surely should've bagged many more votes at seats last May?

Political Correctness and fear stop most people from voting for or being seen to support UKIP.
I'd guess around 75% of indigenous Brits would support around 75% of UKIPs policies in truth but the liberal left pointing screaming "racist" and "xenophobe" at anything not seen to be in collusion with the left wing's fantasy of "multiculturalism" deters the middle-of-the-road voters.
You exhibit symptoms of the same madness in your post above by referring to UKIP as "far right".
Google the term Jack, and you'll see that UKIP are nothing of the sort.

 

[santa sangria]

75% of me is sniggering at the use of stats there!

Every country in Europe needs better immigration controls, from within Europe, outside Europe, with refugees, job seekers etc.
The UK needs its own solution (not the Australian model but something else)... and the EU should be doing a lot more to help the UK, as well as Greece, Italy etc etc to control the movement of people.

The free movement of people is not a realistic goal.
What have the UK, other countries and the EU actually achieved on this in the last year... Cameron's poxy concessions, the Turkey agreement... ? It's just not enough.
It needs work. I still don't think it's rationale for leaving the EU. I think it should be a massive lever to affect EU policy.

 

[jack.prescott]

You exhibit symptoms of the same madness in your post above by referring to UKIP as "far right".
Google the term Jack, and you'll see that UKIP are nothing of the sort.

It was in "--" for a reason Kes, studied AS Governemnt and Politics last year . A lesson being lectured on how far right and far left politics are essentially the same thing

 

[HertsFinest]

It was in "--" for a reason Kes, studied AS Governemnt and Politics last year . A lesson being lectured on how far right and far left politics are essentially the same thing

The problem is schools and universities are now so heavily left skewed it's painful

 

[Kes]

The problem is schools and universities are now so heavily left skewed it's painful

Nail on head.

 

[Kes]

It was in "--" for a reason Kes, studied AS Governemnt and Politics last year . A lesson being lectured on how far right and far left politics are essentially the same thing

Okay, sorry, my mistake.
That is actually very true.
My point was that so many people are bombarded and brainwashed with liberal left propaganda these days, from schools and universities, to the shamefully leftist BBC news. Anything that is percieved as being in opposition to the grand and pre-ordained scheme of things ie multiculturalism, climate change etc is shouted down, ridiculed, ignored or portrayed as "bad". Hopefully, you're one of a few young people that exist today that can not only recognise the fact, but act independently and think for themselves on political issues.

 

[HertsFinest]

I should add it wasn't THAT long ago that I left school and the propaganda was creeping in then to the point at one general election our business classroom actually had a vote labour bunting hung around the edge of the room courtesy of one Mr Simpson. Perculiar as he was a business owner and very well off but hey ho

 

[xPositor]

The younger generations are interested in politics, they perhaps just don't realise it (they may be concerned about how they will ever afford their first house, or the level of debt they might incur going to university, or many many more issues - but don't necessarily link that to a political debate). So perhaps the messaging / targeting is wrong. I'm a strong believer in mandatory voting (but in normal elections, rather than referendum, I also believe there should be abstention box you can tick).

In terms of immigration, the internal movement of labour within the EU is going to cause the more prosperous countries bigger and bigger problems over time, particularly when Turkey gain entry. What has membership of the EU got to do with "non-EU" immigration? Well, Belgium (if memory serves), allows you to apply for citizenship after three years. So after living in Belgium for just three years, you can apply for citizenship and get a shiny new Belgian passport. Which just happens to grant you free movement throughout the EU. Some of the newer Eastern European countries don't have the same control over passport stocks as the UK does either - so regardless of where you are from originally, you can buy what is essentially a fully valid passport - which again grants you freedom of movement throughout the EU.

I personally welcome immigration - regardless of where someone might be from - but do believe we should control the numbers so that a) we can maintain net immigration at a sustainable level and b) we prioritise people with the skills that we require. Who on here believes we should just be able to go and live/work in Australia? I'm sure we're all accepting of the fact that we have to score sufficient points to get the right visa. So why wouldn't you support the same process for your own country?

On multiculturalism - an integrated approach I have no concern with, but this has been a poisonous and failed experiment from the Blair era, and you often see isolated / ghettoed communities. You should take a look at the birth statistics as well of some of these immigrant groups. If you care about the sustainability of the country, the NHS (and the cost of running it), education and lots of other local services, you should be concerned. I have a good friend that is the ex-Chief Registrar of England, and some of the stats are eye-popping.

ps/ I also believe that there should be an English Assembly/Parliament, for those issues that only relate to England.

 

[Kes]

The younger generations are interested in politics, they perhaps just don't realise it (they may be concerned about how they will ever afford their first house, or the level of debt they might incur going to university, or many many more issues - but don't necessarily link that to a political debate). So perhaps the messaging / targeting is wrong. I'm a strong believer in mandatory voting (but in normal elections, rather than referendum, I also believe there should be abstention box you can tick).

In terms of immigration, the internal movement of labour within the EU is going to cause the more prosperous countries bigger and bigger problems over time, particularly when Turkey gain entry. What has membership of the EU got to do with "non-EU" immigration? Well, Belgium (if memory serves), allows you to apply for citizenship after three years. So after living in Belgium for just three years, you can apply for citizenship and get a shiny new Belgian passport. Which just happens to grant you free movement throughout the EU. Some of the newer Eastern European countries don't have the same control over passport stocks as the UK does either - so regardless of where you are from originally, you can buy what is essentially a fully valid passport - which again grants you freedom of movement throughout the EU.

I personally welcome immigration - regardless of where someone might be from - but do believe we should control the numbers so that a) we can maintain net immigration at a sustainable level and b) we prioritise people with the skills that we require. Who on here believes we should just be able to go and live/work in Australia? I'm sure we're all accepting of the fact that we have to score sufficient points to get the right visa. So why wouldn't you support the same process for your own country?

On multiculturalism - an integrated approach I have no concern with, but this has been a poisonous and failed experiment from the Blair era, and you often see isolated / ghettoed communities. You should take a look at the birth statistics as well of some of these immigrant groups. If you care about the sustainability of the country, the NHS (and the cost of running it), education and lots of other local services, you should be concerned. I have a good friend that is the ex-Chief Registrar of England, and some of the stats are eye-popping.

ps/ I also believe that there should be an English Assembly/Parliament, for those issues that only relate to England.

Totally.
Top post chap

 

[santa sangria]

The problem is schools and universities are now so heavily left skewed it's painful

The problem is that left is now so far right that the terms are meaningless.

 

[RegalRef]

The whole Brexit campaign is simply a ruse to facilitate the rise to power of Nigel Farage and his band of reconstituted racists......

Hence why it's only the extreme right wing and low intelligence (Jeremy Kyle audience ) markets who are falling for it......

If the 'little Englanders' carry the vote then I genuinely fear for the future of this country......

Is your favourite term to just constantly brand anybody and everybody who has a differing view to you racist?

I'm not prejudice against anybody in particular, I hate everybody in equal measure.

I'm always suspicious of people who are so quick to accuse others. Usually means they are attempting to deflect attention from themselves for the very same reason...

 

[zarathustra]

The whole Brexit campaign is simply a ruse to facilitate the rise to power of Nigel Farage and his band of reconstituted racists......

Hence why it's only the extreme right wing and low intelligence (Jeremy Kyle audience ) markets who are falling for it......

If the 'little Englanders' carry the vote then I genuinely fear for the future of this country......

Give your head a wobble, big shag.

I know plenty of people who are in favour of voting "out", and I would not class one of them as extreme right wing and/or low on intelligence.

It is a mark of the true leftist guardian reader that they scream racist at the top of their lungs every time someone dares to disagree with their misguided view of the world.

 

[HRW]

In - balls deep, all the way to the hilt, every time.

Oh ..... you meant .........

we're not talking about when it's just you and the .......... oh sh-ite.

delete..... Delete............DELETE..............AAARRRGGHHHHHH

bugga!

FWIW the split ive seen seems to be generational - those generally over 40 / 50 seem to say out and those under 40ish seem to say in. Just what I've seen / heard around Londonish.

Personally?............ it's my choice even if I spoil my paper.