santa sangria
RefChat Addict
Anyone looking at VAR to disallow Dunk's DFK as a Bton player was touching the wall?
Anyone?
Anyone?
Liv Bri
- Thread starter santa sangria
- Start date
I hadn't even thought of that, but yes, you're absolutely right.
Even without that, for me it's a textbook example of what we're not supposed to do at grassroots. You've sent a player off, so even if it's not a particularly controversial red card, it's still a high temperature moment. Why on earth would you then allow a "quick" free kick? That should have been the most ceremonial FK you've ever seen.
The offending team doesn't get many rights, but the one thing they should have is the right not to be confused by the referee. I'll have to watch it back to see if Atkinson is trying to hurry up the defense or if he warns them that it's time to start, but if not, blowing the whistle while standing basically over the ball without any warning is absolutely not the right way to do it.
He's very lucky that goal didn't turn out to be more important, because if you're looking to throw your match control down the toilet, that's pretty much the textbook definition of how to do it.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
From what I saw on highlights MA blows while walking and is very close to Dunk. It looked poor and was not expected. Too much interference.
I'm not going to dispute your timings as I don't have access to the full video. But even so, I refer you back to my "right not to be confused" point. GK is stood next to one post, referee is stood essentially over the ball. If the referee thinks the GK is wasting time, he's got the option of shouting a warning, or he's got the option to take a few steps away and make it obvious he wants to restart.
What he absolutely shouldn't do is blow the whistle as he is stood over the FK and then retreat rapidly. You can't take a quick FK after a 15-20 second delay, even ignoring the time involved in getting the sub keeper on.
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
I agree with @GraemeS on best practices here. We should not surprise players. No, the GK doesn’t get as long as he wants to set the wall (but why weren’t they doing that during the sub?!?), but there should be fair warning before putting the ballin play. Was 5e R wrong in law? No. Nothing in Law 13 says you have to wait for the defense to be ready. But once we go ceremonial, there should not be surprises.
This didn't happen.
He backed away, then blew the whistle.
And this was AFTER the GK came in from his sub, jogged to his goal area, put his stuff down, and then the 15-20s of setting the wall up began.
Why isn't that wall more or less set up already? What have the defenders been doing all this time? Arguing the call?
one
RefChat Addict
Why on earth would blow for restart at this moment. With that huge gap you might as well hand them the goal. I thought at that level it's all about game management. tBH I think this was due to lack of awareness and concentration at that moment rather than anything else.
He would have also been "perfectly within his rights" to blow for restart as soon as the replacement keeper crossed the thouch line into the FOP. Why wait 15-20 second?
You don't punish a slow keeper by practically handing the other team a goal. There are better and fairer ways to manage that.
i think this is called man city conspiracy
. I thought it was a bit of a rick from the ref but Liverpool won so no harm done and a good learning point of what not to do. Sunday morning there would be some very angry players letting you know what they thought about that. YNWA
. I thought it was a bit of a rick from the ref but Liverpool won so no harm done and a good learning point of what not to do. Sunday morning there would be some very angry players letting you know what they thought about that. YNWA
GK's set the wall, that's always how it works. In fact, that's exactly what he was doing, he was stood over one side of the goal trying to line the wall up with the ball, so that he could be responsible for the other side of the goal. A defender in the wall can't do that with the same level of accuracy, because it requires them to look at the ball and the post at the same time - and even if they did do it, the GK might want them to guard the other side of the goal, so he'd then have to reset it as soon as he arrived.
If he wanted to restart, why didn't he warn the keeper? That's all I'm asking for, and that's exactly what I'm trained to do at grassroots.
I'm not claiming any huge conspiracy, but season before last I thought Atkinson looked a bit past it. He improved massively last season, but I've seen him twice so far this season and he's had an incident of lack of awareness in both matches.i think this is called man city conspiracy
The least cynical view possible here is that he just wasn't aware that the keeper wasn't ready. We don't need to get into some of the conspiracies floating round to find bad practice here, we just need to accept that he's human and, having just nailed a KPI 30 seconds before, perhaps wasn't 100% concentrating on the next action.
onthebrink
Well-Known Member
I disagree. I think it is reasonable for a goalkeeper to line his wall up - we see it happening all the time. Everyone's expectation is that a referee doesn't just blow the whistle when that is happening.
You wouldn't expect a referee to blow for a penalty to be taken if a goalkeeper was stood by one post.
Peter Grove
RefChat Addict
If you've ever played in goal or been a goalkeeping coach I don't think you'd feel that way. Defenders can't judge where to place the wall by themselves. Only the goalkeeper has the knowledge (acquired and/or taught) to decide exactly where the wall should go, how many players should be in it etc. For instance, part of it is based on the keeper's knowledge of their own abilities, which areas they can or can't reach.
In any event, the main point for me here, is that in all previous discussions on quick free kicks that I can recall, the consensus has usually been that the referee can allow the quick free kick if they haven't intervened but once they've taken control of the situation it has to be ceremonial. You can't start down the path of a ceremonial free kick, including marking the distance for the wall with vanishing spray and then suddenly revert back to allowing the quick kick without the defenders being aware of it.
The referee here has basically fooled the defenders into thinking they're going to be allowed time to set up the wall and then without any warning has switched back to a quick free kick protocol.
As others have alluded to, if you think the keeper is taking too much time you can let him know and tell him to get a move on. You don't just let the attackers kick the ball into an empty net.
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santa sangria
RefChat Addict
I have a slightly nuanced take.
I don’t have a problem with the whistle, and Adrian not being ready, but I do have a problem with the referee whistling when he’s walking here.
The expectation is for the referee to be ”set” and then blow - a clear signal. Here MA us walking, the signal us not as clear as expected. It looks like he is trying to catch oit the defence.
(Soap box, pet peev) Who on here has been advised, or given advice at free kicks about to be launched into the box: get into position first, don’t blow on the run?
I don’t have a problem with the whistle, and Adrian not being ready, but I do have a problem with the referee whistling when he’s walking here.
The expectation is for the referee to be ”set” and then blow - a clear signal. Here MA us walking, the signal us not as clear as expected. It looks like he is trying to catch oit the defence.
(Soap box, pet peev) Who on here has been advised, or given advice at free kicks about to be launched into the box: get into position first, don’t blow on the run?
I have been both. My coaches/etc as I was growing up playing semi-seriously were always all about "if the GK gets sent off, get the wall in approximately the right place while we're getting the new one in." It's a good tactic so that the incoming GK only has to tweak the wall.
In this situation, the ref let the new GK come onto the field of play, there was obviously some communication, because at that time, he administered the ceremonial restart. Pushed the wall back appropriately, etc.
From the time that the GK went to the post to the whistle was approximately 25s.
That's a HELL of a long time.
As a goalkeeper, you MUST be aware of what the referee is doing at all times. When you see them moving away from the spot of the FK, get into position and who cares about the wall, you know a whistle is coming.
Agree, it isn't as though Atkinson only gave them 5 seconds to line up the wall, they had used close to 30 seconds and I suspect might have still been there 30 seconds later had he not whistled. Perhaps he could have given a verbal warning before blowing, but he isn't obliged to.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
Here's another angle on the DFK moment:
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
One observation watching it from that angle. There seemed to be absolutely no outrage from the Liverpool players, just a mild complaint from. unsurprisingly, the GK.
Whilst I don't think we should be applauding or copying this as best practice, the Liverpool players knew that fundamentally they only had themselves to blame ...