1st Penalty (Kane).... Discuss!!!
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Liverpool V Spurs
- Thread starter Sheffields Finest
- Start date
Brave but correct on the second one!!!! (maybe)
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Both totally correct for me. The first one Lovren plays the ball, the fact he makes a total mess of it doesn't mean that he didn't play it, so Kane can't be offside. Then Karius has come flying out and caught Kane, I do think Kane went down theatrically but he was definitely caught.
The second one is a brilliant and incredibly brave decision by Eddie Smart. Jon Moss wrongly ruled it out, so for the Smart to come in is outstanding officiating at that level. The reason I say at that level is they have the replays to prove them right, I wouldn't advise an assistant at lower levels coming in like that when the referee has clearly said no.
The second one is a brilliant and incredibly brave decision by Eddie Smart. Jon Moss wrongly ruled it out, so for the Smart to come in is outstanding officiating at that level. The reason I say at that level is they have the replays to prove them right, I wouldn't advise an assistant at lower levels coming in like that when the referee has clearly said no.
I got lynched for giving a very similar one to the first one a few years ago by a top of the league home team. I had 11 players around me questioning my ability and interpretation of Law 
but I stuck to my guns and calmly walked back to the centre circle... 2 / 3 yellows ensued but I knew I was correct.... They were on about it all season in other games but its nice to see these given in this way. Ballsey Lino and great reffing too. Alli's dive was spotted and he got all the key decisions correct!!
but I stuck to my guns and calmly walked back to the centre circle... 2 / 3 yellows ensued but I knew I was correct.... They were on about it all season in other games but its nice to see these given in this way. Ballsey Lino and great reffing too. Alli's dive was spotted and he got all the key decisions correct!!
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
I am a Liverpool fan and I have to agree. On first replay it looked like Lamela (?) had started to clutch his leg before the contact, but the second replay showed it was an easy decision to give - and does not flatter Moss that he waved it away. Now, whether an AR form 35 yards should be over-ruling a clear "no foul" signal from a ref 6 yards away is a big question here. If my ref gives a clear signal like that, no way I am undermining him/her. You just can't do that as an AR. Would the AR have done that in the 10th minute, or for a foul outside the box with 5 mins to go: categorically not. Yes, balls of steel there. But... in the end it is just making officials look untrustworthy.
Just to add, great goals from Wanyama and Salah. And Liverpool didn't deserve to win. For all the promise of these two teams, Lovren's horrid mistake, Kane's first pen, Ali's dive were just terribly bad football, but not still as bad as the performance by the Ox - IMHO the Ox's 25 mins or whatever on the pitch probably cost us that game. Now I see what the Gooners were on about.
Just to add, great goals from Wanyama and Salah. And Liverpool didn't deserve to win. For all the promise of these two teams, Lovren's horrid mistake, Kane's first pen, Ali's dive were just terribly bad football, but not still as bad as the performance by the Ox - IMHO the Ox's 25 mins or whatever on the pitch probably cost us that game. Now I see what the Gooners were on about.
First penalty looked like a dive to me anyway, but given Kane was in an offside position when the ball was originally played to him, isn't Lovren's scuffed touch irrelevant and the offside should have been given?
Second probably was a penalty (if a little soft and with a possible push by the other attacker just before the ball went into the PA in the first place), but I wouldn't even say brave, I'd say potentially wrong to do. Whenever I AR, the instruction is to only get involved if the ref hasn't made a clear decision - and Moss made a big "no penalty" shout immediately. Instructions might be different in the PL, but at my level, the AR shouldn't be getting involved once the ref has said no, however clear a penalty he thinks it is.
Second probably was a penalty (if a little soft and with a possible push by the other attacker just before the ball went into the PA in the first place), but I wouldn't even say brave, I'd say potentially wrong to do. Whenever I AR, the instruction is to only get involved if the ref hasn't made a clear decision - and Moss made a big "no penalty" shout immediately. Instructions might be different in the PL, but at my level, the AR shouldn't be getting involved once the ref has said no, however clear a penalty he thinks it is.
As rustyref said, at supply/contrib/panel no way should an AR over-rule a referee cutting grass, but at PL level, the assistant knows he has replays to back him up, so if he knows it's the correct decision, he can flag it with confidence!
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Maybe if the ref does not use an unauthorised hand signal in the first place, things be simplier, esp as he has comms to shout "no" to the AR
Cutting the grass is a ridiculous effort to appease a crowd
Simply not giving a decision is enough to say you are not giving it
Why complicate things!
Cutting the grass is a ridiculous effort to appease a crowd
Simply not giving a decision is enough to say you are not giving it
Why complicate things!
Hi As Lovren has " played" the ball albeit poorly it is a reset of offside in which case Kane was not offside. To quote Law 11
** A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by any opponent) is not considered to have gained an advantage.**
msportstars
New Member
Does it not say in the LOG this "other match officials with assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the laws of the game but the final decision will be taken by the referee"
Does that not mean then all referees on the pitch must work as a team to achieve the correct result. Surely that's the same as pilot and co-pilot in an aeroplane, they work together? Saying categorically that your AR's should not be getting involved makes you vulnerable and is not good man management?
Does that not mean then all referees on the pitch must work as a team to achieve the correct result. Surely that's the same as pilot and co-pilot in an aeroplane, they work together? Saying categorically that your AR's should not be getting involved makes you vulnerable and is not good man management?
On The Game
New Member
I believe the advice about not overruling at lower levels as that’s how I’ve gone about it in the past. Referee gives a clear no, I’ve not come in regardless.
But I’ve had assessors telling me I should have and overruled because one was clear as day.
I stick with letting the ref take the heat and stay out when they’ve shouted “no”
But I’ve had assessors telling me I should have and overruled because one was clear as day.
I stick with letting the ref take the heat and stay out when they’ve shouted “no”
I think that in isolation an argument can be made for both penalties being pens and both penalties not being pens. The problem lies that Moss never controlled the game from minute 1. He allowed the play to continue a lot when fouls should have been given.
On another note, Alexander Arnold was involved in two heavy challenges (one a potential leg breaker either way that wasn't even given as an FK) and yet when Moss cautioned him he never said a word to the player just waved his yellow card. This is a consistent thing across the professional game and I think it is worrying because that was the exact moment to take him to one side slow/calm the game down and warn him. Would be interested to hear others' thoughts on the quick draw yellow and game management that we see less and less of.
On another note, Alexander Arnold was involved in two heavy challenges (one a potential leg breaker either way that wasn't even given as an FK) and yet when Moss cautioned him he never said a word to the player just waved his yellow card. This is a consistent thing across the professional game and I think it is worrying because that was the exact moment to take him to one side slow/calm the game down and warn him. Would be interested to hear others' thoughts on the quick draw yellow and game management that we see less and less of.
Mark Halsey on twitter saying its offside as Kane is interfering with Lovren.
But surely, going by the LOG..
1) Kane is not blocking Lovrens attempt to play the ball
2) Kane is not making any gesture or movement towards Lovren, to deceive or distract
So therefore, he cannot be interfering with play?
But surely, going by the LOG..
1) Kane is not blocking Lovrens attempt to play the ball
2) Kane is not making any gesture or movement towards Lovren, to deceive or distract
So therefore, he cannot be interfering with play?
Well of course.
Personally, what I find more disturbing is that there's a deeply ingrained view that referees are attention seekers and drama-queens. That bothers me far more than their ignorance about the Laws to be honest.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
The Lovren Kane offside... 100% onside. Lovren plays the ball. No interference. There is no debate there.
Was it a foul, was there contact by Karius - that I haven't seen yet.
Lovren made two horrendous efforts with his right foot in this game - that through ball and another slapstick over the bar in the box. Between those and the world's most expensive defender giving away the final pen... OMG drives me nuts. The amount of possession wasted by TAA in the 2nd half too. (And Gomez is a liability) Liverpool won't get in the top 4 without a massive kick up the you know whats!
Was it a foul, was there contact by Karius - that I haven't seen yet.
Lovren made two horrendous efforts with his right foot in this game - that through ball and another slapstick over the bar in the box. Between those and the world's most expensive defender giving away the final pen... OMG drives me nuts. The amount of possession wasted by TAA in the 2nd half too. (And Gomez is a liability) Liverpool won't get in the top 4 without a massive kick up the you know whats!
A few years ago it would be offside, but since the rewrite it can't be. Lovren has intentionally played the ball, and that means the offside "phase" is over. The fact he has made a mess of playing the ball is neither here nor there, he has played it.
With regards to the second penalty, people are forgetting about the comms. I haven't seen a wide angled view, but I would guess that Eddie Smart has told Jon Moss about the foul verbally before he signalled, and Moss will have then told him to flag it. That's a lot different to an assistant at lower levels seeing the referee ruling out the penalty and then flagging anyway, as in that case they wouldn't have been able to discuss it before it got to that point. At this level, where every decision is reviewed across multiple angles, getting the right decision is the only consideration, even if that means the assistant effectively overruling the referee. Not the same at lower levels as no one would ever know whether the referee was initially right to rule it out.
Ben, to answer your question, referees at the top level are told to "flash the cards", the authorities don't want lectures and talkings to as it slows down the game. That advice used to be down to L3, although I believe that L3s are no longer allowed to flash the cards and must take names.
With regards to the second penalty, people are forgetting about the comms. I haven't seen a wide angled view, but I would guess that Eddie Smart has told Jon Moss about the foul verbally before he signalled, and Moss will have then told him to flag it. That's a lot different to an assistant at lower levels seeing the referee ruling out the penalty and then flagging anyway, as in that case they wouldn't have been able to discuss it before it got to that point. At this level, where every decision is reviewed across multiple angles, getting the right decision is the only consideration, even if that means the assistant effectively overruling the referee. Not the same at lower levels as no one would ever know whether the referee was initially right to rule it out.
Ben, to answer your question, referees at the top level are told to "flash the cards", the authorities don't want lectures and talkings to as it slows down the game. That advice used to be down to L3, although I believe that L3s are no longer allowed to flash the cards and must take names.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
Tru dat!Well of course.
Personally, what I find more disturbing is that there's a deeply ingrained view that referees are attention seekers and drama-queens. That bothers me far more than their ignorance about the Laws to be honest.
Kane dived for me. At first I thought the assistant got the penalty right but if you watch carefully, Lamela is looking for that all day, sees Van Dijk about to kick and throws himself into it, Moss was right to deny it. I can understand why the assistant thinks it was though because it looked clumsy from Van Dijk.