Liverpool vs Spurs

[GraemeS]

Fair enough. But easily missed depending on angle. VAR still wouldnt step in on this as force, contact. Player not off ground etc was low. Now if ref had given red then VaR again wouldn’t step in and this is difficult for fans to get their heads around.

I mean, I think you're giving VAR far too much room there. These are both decisions where red is clearly correct (how much more forceful can you get than a players entire body weight being applied to an ankle, and the tackle was at least high enough to go over the ball first?) and we've seen VAR get involved for far less for Casemiro's latest red.

The on field official has clearly not seen the first challenge correctly - there's an argument that there's a C&O mistake purely in the fact he's not given a foul. So we've reached the C&O threshold immediately. The only remaining question therefore is if the VAR sees it as a red where they can get involved, or yellow where they can't, and I'm a little surprised there's much debate on that.

Take out the VAR C&O question and I don't think there's much argument that the best decision for both is red. And any functional VAR system should result in this.

 

[socal lurker]

there seem to be many time where PL VARs do not get involved on plays that would routinely get sent down in every other league in the world

whether that is a bug or a feature we’ll see as Webb establishes himself

 

[mctones]

there seem to be many time where PL VARs do not get involved on plays that would routinely get sent down in every other league in the world

whether that is a bug or a feature we’ll see as Webb establishes himself

Another case of damned if we do, damned if we don’t. Seem to recall a lot of criticism that VAR getting involved too much last season!

 

[JBeil]

Liverpool boss Klopp charged over referee comments

Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp is charged by the FA for his comments about referee Paul Tierney after his side's 4-3 win against Tottenham on Sunday.

www.bbc.co.uk

I think this was always coming once he accused Tierney of bias against his team.

 

[mctones]

Genuine question as a neutral trying to understand lotg a little better, why was Klopp given a yellow card and not a red, i.e Law 12 Sending Off offences for team officials:

deliberately leaving the technical area to:
show dissent towards, or remonstrate with, a match official

 

[GraemeS]

Is celebrating a goal dissent? I think you're right and it should have just been red, but there's a (pretty weak) argument that what he did isn't covered by that paragraph.

 

[ARF]

"Deliberately leaving the technical area to act in a provocative or inflammatory manner" covers it for me.

 

[RustyRef]

"Deliberately leaving the technical area to act in a provocative or inflammatory manner" covers it for me.

I agree, if he definitely left his technical area it should have been a red. I just have a nagging doubt that John Brooks was keeping an eye on him due to his behaviour and therefore might have been close to the Liverpool technical area. Can't find a video or any images to check on this though.

 

[Big Cat]

Makes no odds whether the German left his TA... (or indeed if he was behaving provocatively)
Such Laws are always ignored... existing in our pamphlet for exam purposes only

 

[DJIC]

I agree, if he definitely left his technical area it should have been a red. I just have a nagging doubt that John Brooks was keeping an eye on him due to his behaviour and therefore might have been close to the Liverpool technical area. Can't find a video or any images to check on this though.

MOTD footage shows John Brooks was in the centre of the tunnel, in the middle of the two technical areas. So no doubt in my mind it was a mandatory red card. Exactly the behaviour being copied by Step 5 managers & benches on a regular basis. Let’s hope as Klopp was warned about his future behaviour, the appropriate punishment is handed down.

 

[RustyRef]

MOTD footage shows John Brooks was in the centre of the tunnel, in the middle of the two technical areas. So no doubt in my mind it was a mandatory red card. Exactly the behaviour being copied by Step 5 managers & benches on a regular basis. Let’s hope as Klopp was warned about his future behaviour, the appropriate punishment is handed down.

That's what I'm not sure of though, at some grounds the technical areas effectively merge into one, there isn't much of a gap between them, if any.

 

[one]

That's what I'm not sure of though, at some grounds the technical areas effectively merge into one, there isn't much of a gap between them, if any.

He would have been out of TA but not by a lot. The line for TA starts before the edge of tunnel wall.

 

[GraemeS]

MOTD footage shows John Brooks was in the centre of the tunnel, in the middle of the two technical areas. So no doubt in my mind it was a mandatory red card. Exactly the behaviour being copied by Step 5 managers & benches on a regular basis. Let’s hope as Klopp was warned about his future behaviour, the appropriate punishment is handed down.

And by that copycat Ryan Mason, who was shouting at the very same 4O for most of the second half. And Alex Ferguson, Arsene Wenger, Jose Mourinho - all copycatting Klopp's behaviour....

There are ways to fix the issue systemically and then there is the concept of just handing out punishments randomly because certain newspapers and TV channels have decided to campaign against certain managers. The latter has been done for years and it's achieved zero long term benefit in terms of sideline behaviour.

And referees don't help themselves by being reticent and inconsistent with punishments - like I say, Mason should have been booked half an hour before Klopp was for his behaviour towards the 4O, I've also recently seen clips of Moyes coming onto the pitch at FT to shout at Kavanaugh and receive no card. And as has been pointed out, even in this instance, the officials didn't reach the right punishment for Klopp!

There should be standard punishments in place that kick in immediately, so we don't get this bizarre situation where Klopp is now going to be on the bench for 2 or 3 more games before they decide to actually ban him. But the SG1 referees also need to do their part and apply sanctions properly, otherwise they only have themselves to blame.

 

[Degnann]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659218876645908480

Curious if VAR protocol was followed here or if its perhaps just bad use of language from VAR when a check complete would have done

 

[RustyRef]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659218876645908480

Curious if VAR protocol was followed here or if its perhaps just bad use of language from VAR when a check complete would have done

If that is correct the officials would have had to answer some difficult questions, as VAR cannot get involved until a decision has actually been made.

 

[Kes]

Aggressive and obnoxious behaviour towards a match official. End of. Nobody should be excusing or condoning it (IMO).

 

[Peter Grove]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659218876645908480

Curious if VAR protocol was followed here or if its perhaps just bad use of language from VAR when a check complete would have done

If the referee hasn't seen the behaviour in question, he can't exactly make a decision though, can he? I think VAR is allowed to advise the referee on things he hasn't seen.

 

[Peter Grove]

If that is correct the officials would have had to answer some difficult questions, as VAR cannot get involved until a decision has actually been made.

But if the referee hasn't seen the behaviour in question, he can't exactly make a decision though, can he? Isn't VAR is allowed to advise the referee on things he hasn't seen?

 

[Runner-Ref]

The below is from the Premier League website

VAR will be used only for “clear and obvious errors” or “serious missed incidents” in four match-changing situations: goals; penalty decisions; direct red-card incidents; and mistaken identity.

So VAR cannot intervene and advise to give a yellow card. But I guess that as Brooks recommended yellow, VAR was merely agreeing with this as they hadn’t seen anything worthy of bumping it up to a red

I suppose where it gets messy is Tierney had’t actually shown a card of any kind at this point. This goes against what would normally happen in a potential red card scenario, I’d say. If they start releasing the audio on a more regular basis, I think it will certainly help understand situations like this.

I don’t think Tierney had a very good game that day, but Klopps behaviour was bang out of order.

 

[GraemeS]

But if the referee hasn't seen the behaviour in question, he can't exactly make a decision though, can he? Isn't VAR is allowed to advise the referee on things he hasn't seen?

Referees have made decisions on the advice of their assistants for years. If the 4O says "yellow card", he's perfectly entitled to decide if he wants to go along with that or not on that advice alone. But the VAR protocol specifically says that the VAR should not be used in this way - he must make a decision before VAR gets involved and the VAR then can recommend that decision be upheld or changed.

I think it's neater like this than showing an incorrect sanction and then correcting it, and there's an argument this process is better than what we currently have. But this is pretty clearly not how VAR is supposed to work at the moment.

Tierney has asked a question of the VAR that he shouldn't be asking and it reads to me as if the VAR knows this, hence the precise choice of language that lets him pretend as if he's confirming a YC decision that's already been made. It's not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, but he should be getting a behind-the-scenes slap on the wrist, as Webb could have a very awkward chat coming up on his new TV show if any of the pundits happen to pick up on this discrepancy.