Which completely contradicts what is written in law. I suspect they wrote, although didn't publish, that before the law that said a deflection off your own body wasn't handball was removed.
Luton v Wolves
- Thread starter JBeil
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First of all, Moore’s arms are no way near as high as the Wolves defenders. On top of that, his (wolves) is a standing challenge, rather than a slide.When an individual reaches for a the ball in that manner their opposite arm to the leg that are challenging with will swing out to act as balance.
From the greatest to parks football, the bio mechanics are the same.
If finding an image from 50 odd years ago is the basis for your case, it isn’t a very strong one. The game back then was a lot different a lot slower and probably a lot less technical. In those days, handball was very rarely given, as were fouls in general.
Has he meant it? No. Does he need to mean it? No.
We can discuss this all day and I imagine those who believe it is handball won’t change their minds. And those who believe it wasn’t, also won’t change their minds.
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Handball no longer needs to be deliberate. And even if they changed the laws to say all handballs must now be deliberate, there would still be inconsistencies
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That bit was removed (think it was 21/22)
Something like:
Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the player and the ball (could the flight of the ball be anticipated?) [That makes handball off a deflection less likely.]
• the position of the hand or arm (is it a "natural" position?) [That rules out "John Terry pseudo-goalkeeper saves", or players spreading their arms to block a cross - so complementing bullet point one, that even ball to hand can be penalised]
Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the player and the ball (could the flight of the ball be anticipated?) [That makes handball off a deflection less likely.]
• the position of the hand or arm (is it a "natural" position?) [That rules out "John Terry pseudo-goalkeeper saves", or players spreading their arms to block a cross - so complementing bullet point one, that even ball to hand can be penalised]
Yes but that exemption was from the player deliberately kicking or heading the ball onto their arm or a teammates arm. It never applied to situations like this.
Anyone looking at that might assume it was kicked directly by red to the upraised arm of blue. It wasn't though, was it? It hit blue's leg and deflected skyward. Perhaps to be fair, red should not be allowed to make his body unnaturally bigger by swinging his arm to impart some extra power to the shot.
You were making a point about the players arm being in a expected position. I could have used hundreds of images from any era to demonstrate that physical mechanics have not changed.
The player in the picture you have provided in 2023 is demonstrating those mechanics. The player was not merely standing when he made the challenge, he was mobile.
Attempt for yourself the same movement and expect to raise an arm to provide balance.
At the professional game they are taking a risk approaching a shot or cross with their arms above their head. SImple as that.
If the shot is aimed low, where's the risk in having your arm high?
It's only a risk because the law dictates that unless you have your arm amputated, there's a risk of a handling offence.
Except that deliberately handles the ball is not the listed offence any longer - it was up to a few years ago but now it is specifically “a handball offence” that are later defined with deliberately handles the ball as the first of 3 bullet points!
They game has changed and moved on from deliberate being the overriding and sole factor but sadly too many in the game don’t want to keep up
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Yes, but the deflection aspect was taken out of the laws a few years back, as we have already said.
Your last comment is just ridiculous and maybe proves it’s not worth having a discussion on incidents with yourself if that’s the route you want to take
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This was still lead to major inconsistencies. So doesn’t really solve the issue
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An arm out to the side for balance, yes. An arm above your head, not for me
Great so now refs have to take into account not only where the players arm was but where the shot was aimed? Everyone who complains about the handball law being too complex usually ends up arguing it should be even more complex to get the outcome they want.
Yes but I think someone posted from IFAB querying it who confirmed it is still relevant.
The player did not run towards the opponent waving an arm in the air. His arm is in that position because of his own movement in attempting to block the football.
Are you stating that an arm above a certain angle is unnatural? What is the exact angle the arm can be taking into consideration physical dynamics? Straight? Ninety degrees and rigid?
Well that's the issue in a nutshell. The game has changed, I don't really want to "keep up" with laws that change every year in a hopeful yet hopeless search for consistency but ends with decisions that only referees wedded to this year's guidance think is fair, and not even they * really think an unintentional handball nowhere near goal with only a remote chance of leading to a goal deserves a free shot at goal from 12 yards.
I was asked how I'd write the law, so I have the freedom to start from scratch, keep (or reverse) whatever guidance and changes I like. (Sir Stanley Rous, thou should'st be living now.)
* Sorry if anyone does think it's proportionate and fair.
You don't really have a choice if you want to be a referee, or indeed be a member of and post on a refereeing forum. The laws are the laws whether we like them or not.