A&H

Man U v PSG

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QuaverRef said:
Tell you what, go outside, run and spin in the air and see where your arms end up. I’m pretty confident it wouldn’t be dissimilar to what you saw tonight
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My understanding of instruction is that if you're deliberately jumping at the ball, you are responsible for keeping your arms out of the way and not using them to take up extra space. The deliberate action is flinging oneself in front of the ball that is going to be kicked. (Whether this would change with the silhouette concept that IFAB is introducing, I haven't a clue.)
 
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GraemeS said:
Just to clarify, that looks like the ref is being shown that decision in slow-mo? I'd be interested to know if he'd still have given that if he'd seen it at full speed, as you really can't underestimate just how quickly the ball moved from boot to elbow. Given that, I'm baffled to understand how on earth he could consider that deliberate given the defender has his back turned.

In fact, if you watch the BT clip, you can see that only one player even appealed for the PK, and the commentators didn't mention the possibility even after seeing an immediate replay. "What football expects" is out the window I suppose?
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I think you have a good point. Slo-mo gives a completely different interpretation.
 
GraemeS said:
Just to clarify, that looks like the ref is being shown that decision in slow-mo? I'd be interested to know if he'd still have given that if he'd seen it at full speed, as you really can't underestimate just how quickly the ball moved from boot to elbow. Given that, I'm baffled to understand how on earth he could consider that deliberate given the defender has his back turned.

In fact, if you watch the BT clip, you can see that only one player even appealed for the PK, and the commentators didn't mention the possibility even after seeing an immediate replay. "What football expects" is out the window I suppose?
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I believe that slo-mo is supposed to be used for objective things like "did it hit the arm." If Skomina could not tell if it hit his arm or back, I believe it is consistent with the VAR protocols to use the slo-mo for that.
 
In fact, I'm going to go further - that's a major screw up by whoever was operating the pitch-side monitor. The "did it hit his arm" decision is factual, so can be told to the ref via earpiece - therefore there's zero reason to show him a single slow-mo replay. That decision should have been made completely on full-speed replays, showing him a single slo-mo is going to compeltely ruin his ability to be objective.
 
JH said:
You're assuming that in a tight European knockout game every decision a player makes is rational and conscious.

I'm not giving it, but I think it's not nearly as bad as some recent ones and there is a chance he was trying to block it.
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A chance? Not a clear ad obvious error. If I hit a from 5 yards away from you and you keep your arms by your side then you're very brave and your movements are completely unnatural. Your arms come out to instinctively as when something is heading towards you at 80mph there's a good chance you'll be knocked down and your arms will come out to break a potential fall.
 
socal lurker said:
I believe that slo-mo is supposed to be used for objective things like "did it hit the arm." If Skomina could not tell if it hit his arm or back, I believe it is consistent with the VAR protocols to use the slo-mo for that.
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But that's a factual decision - so surely could have been told to him via earpiece?
 
BCMilan said:
...I tell you what, though ! If that had been given AGAINST an English team, the pundits and supporters would be having a completely different opinion of the decision.
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Don't disagree, but in almost all European countries apart from England (and probably UK as a whole) that is being given as a penalty.
 
For me some on here convincing themselves it's deliberate is just as bad as the referee giving a pen on a slow Mo replay. We are still talking about the current laws for abled (in opposed to disabled) players who have two arms.

There would have no chance of anyone here thinking it was a pen had it been for PSG to win the tie.
 
Two ex referees (Walton and Halsey) disagree with each other. How bad is the law and it's interpretations if two PL refs can't agree!!
 
one said:
For me some on here convincing themselves it's deliberate is just as bad as the referee giving a pen on a slow Mo replay. We are still talking about the current laws for abled (in opposed to disabled) players who have two arms.

There would have no chance of anyone here thinking it was a pen had it been for PSG to win the tie.
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I'll only speak for myself. Putting aside the natural meaning of "deliberate," I would believe this PK properly applied what I understand the current guidance to be on the IFAB meaning of deliberate handling, regardless of team I was rooting for and significance of the call. (Whether that is the best way for us to understand when handling should be called is a different question.)
 
Good luck next season boys at the Dog and Duck when this happens!!! No policemen or stewards to watch your back! This just wasn't a deliberate handball...
 
JH said:
No!
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If he was blocked by the defenders body from seeing where and how the ball and player came into contact then it seems to me reasonable for him to take a look at a reply and for VAR to suggest he did. It's analogous to whether a referee sees an incident during a game and the ability to take retroactive action if he didn't.
I'm with the minority here. I think the arm was far enough from his body and was bending and moving farther away when ball and arm collided. I would have awarded the penalty under my interpretation of the current laws. As many have said, whether those laws are the best we can do is another question. Silhouette...? Oh dear...
 
Generally the only time VAR is used for "serious missed incidents" (which are not clear mistakes) is for incidents behind play. Otherwise the referee can substitute VAR for lack of skill/performance/good positioning. Anyway the referee had clear line of sight here.

Did anyone else notice this? The XL shinguard saved a world of ouch.

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one said:
Generally the only time VAR is used for "serious missed incidents" (which are not clear mistakes) is for incidents behind play. Otherwise the referee can substitute VAR for lake skill/performance/good positioning. Anyway the referee had clear line of sight here.
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Maybe I misunderstood the point of your original "serious missed incident" comment. It seems to me that this incident was identical to many of the reviews in the world cup for handling.

I'll have to look at the incident again, but per my post, my instant impression was that the player's body shielded the contact with the ball.
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BlowingTheGame said:
Maybe I misunderstood the point of your original "serious missed incident" comment. It seems to me that this incident was identical to many of the reviews in the world cup for handling.

I'll have to look at the incident again, but per my post, my instant impression was that the player's body shielded the contact with the ball.
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Too many referees using the review system have a second go at something they are not sure about. VAR's doing the same, "he better look at it again because i'm not sure". That is not what the review system is for.


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To add to that:
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If you look at the replay, the the referee walks to the screen the first thing there is a freeze frame from what I assume is point of contact. This should be the last thing h sees. After the freeze frame he is shown a slow mo of the incident. He shouldn't be looking at this at all if the freeze frame is conclusive as it influences his determination of 'deliberate' (as it has with some posters here, IMO). This is proven by scientific studies. They are getting it all wrong. The same problem in the world cup.
 
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RustyRef said:
I'm not at all happy with the current handball interpretation, and it seems to have been dreamed up from someone (or a group of someones ..!) who has never, ever played football as you cannot jump with your arms by your side.

However, on this one there has to be blame attached to the defender. You never, ever, turn your back on anything and had he stood strong and faced the ball he wouldn't have given a penalty away. Might have been winded, might have been speaking with a squeaky voice for a while, might have even taken a whack in the face, but it isn't really going to hurt him. That was really bad, and you could say cowardly, defending.
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Still did not make it deliberate.......
 
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