A&H

Manchester City v West Ham

The only fan-forum thing is that this incident was where an AR flagged offside a City player who wasn't offside, thus stopping a promising attack. It's certainly not the first time that's happened to City this season. I don't know how often it happens to other teams, because I don't watch their games live (including on TV) and MotD don't usually show such incidents.

The point is that ARs in the EPL have always got some offside decisions wrong, but they now have a mechanism that means the player they think is offside need not be penalised until it's been proved, and they are not using it. Teams are getting goals disallowed on marginal (and maybe technically flawed) offside decisions, but the same technology is not being used when ARs get marginal decisions wrong (and penalise the attacker) - and the AR then stops so if the ref did allow play to continue they are out of position.

I don't know how this operates in other leagues, or whether this is just the EPL/PGMOL making up its own rules, and I don't know if there is any comeback for these wrong decisions. I'm sure as an AR I must get some offsides wrong, but the attacker gets the benefit of any doubt I have, and I'll never know. Are PGMOL actually telling ARs who get these wrong that they were right to have flagged because they thought it was the right decision? Do they keep a list of SPABARs - SPA by AR?
 
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If the AR thought they were making the right decision then they were correct to flag. If you don't want ARs to flag for offside when they think they're right then when exactly would you like them to flag?

I assume they get marked on the accuracy of their decisions, so they then need to look at why they got the decision wrong. Was it their positioning, did they have a lapse in concentration, did a player block their view etc etc.
 
If the AR thought they were making the right decision then they were correct to flag. If you don't want ARs to flag for offside when they think they're right then when exactly would you like them to flag?

I assume they get marked on the accuracy of their decisions, so they then need to look at why they got the decision wrong. Was it their positioning, did they have a lapse in concentration, did a player block their view etc etc.
Any codger at Level 777 can flag for OS when they think they've seen it and it won't really matter, either they're waved down or the referee will blow whistle, someone will moan about it and then everybody forgets after the next idiot trips over making a tackle and starts handbags.

ARs at the level where VAR is in use don't have the luxury of "oops soz GG". There's almost no reason for OS flags to be immediate, so ARs at this level need to quickly consider whether it's close enough that they have a good chance of being wrong, whether it's a failed KMI if they actually are wrong, and only then flag when the answers are NO to both.

The process applied everywhere else does exactly this - delay the flag, alert the delay to all officials, flag once play is stopped or in neutral, allow the referee to make a decision that doesn't make the game unfair due to technicalities, before finally allowing VAR to check and confirm.
 
ARs at the level where VAR is in use don't have the luxury of "oops soz GG". There's almost no reason for OS flags to be immediate, so ARs at this level need to quickly consider whether it's close enough that they have a good chance of being wrong, whether it's a failed KMI if they actually are wrong, and only then flag when the answers are NO to both.
You're absolutely right. However, let's spare a thought for the fact that they will have spent 10-15 years working their way through the system calling offsides a certain way ... to the point where it should be instinctive. Now, with the introduction of VAR, they are being asked to do something fundamentally different. I'm sure they will get there but no surprise (and no conspiracy!) involved in first season issues.
 
You're absolutely right. However, let's spare a thought for the fact that they will have spent 10-15 years working their way through the system calling offsides a certain way ... to the point where it should be instinctive. Now, with the introduction of VAR, they are being asked to do something fundamentally different. I'm sure they will get there but no surprise (and no conspiracy!) involved in first season issues.
It's not that. It's the opposite. EPL are telling them to flag when FIFA says don't. So they aren't learning, and won't go to the world cup.
 
Plenty of confusion around this!

As long as the whistle doesn't go, I believe VAR can intervene. We saw with the Sheffield United V Newcastle situation earlier in the season where an offside was incorrectly given, play continued and the goal was allowed. There was also the Spurs V Chelsea incident in the LC semi-final last year where Kane was initially flagged offside, Michael Oliver let the play carry on, and Kane was then fouled - VAR confirmed it was actually onside so the penalty was in fact given.

One presumes that Kevin Friend din't think it was a penalty because otherwise I'm guessing he'd have pulled it back for the IDFK rather than play advantage? Like if you're trying to play advantage to one team and they then commit a foul, you can't allow the advantage to continue. Presumably at that point VAR didn't think it was a clear and obvious error although in my view it was. If Friend had shown a red card, by the way, it would remarkably have been the third time he'd sent off an away player at the Etihad in the last three games Manchester City have played there!
 
i'm not convinced so i'm looking through the laws...

the ball boy is an outside agent so a drop ball is clearly the correct restart...

oh you're spot on, i apologise!

The ball is dropped for the defending team goalkeeper in their penalty area if, when play was stopped:
• the ball was in the penalty area or
• the last touch of the ball was in the penalty area

clearly the 2nd bullet applies in this instance
Those of us up the other end of the ground were totally confused with the drop ball, we had no idea that it was on the pitch when the BB picked it up. Nearly as bad as when VAR gets involved and the crowd are kept in the dark
 
Those of us up the other end of the ground were totally confused with the drop ball, we had no idea that it was on the pitch when the BB picked it up. Nearly as bad as when VAR gets involved and the crowd are kept in the dark

I can imagine! In 32 years of watching/playing/refereeing football I'd never seenanything like happen before though
 
I can imagine! In 32 years of watching/playing/refereeing football I'd never seenanything like happen before though
Had one in a Contrib game. Ball was going out so manager kicked it to his fb to take the throw. Unfortunately he failed to let it cross the line first, up goes the flag for outside interference.
 
Plenty of confusion around this!

As long as the whistle doesn't go, I believe VAR can intervene. We saw with the Sheffield United V Newcastle situation earlier in the season where an offside was incorrectly given, play continued and the goal was allowed. There was also the Spurs V Chelsea incident in the LC semi-final last year where Kane was initially flagged offside, Michael Oliver let the play carry on, and Kane was then fouled - VAR confirmed it was actually onside so the penalty was in fact given.

One presumes that Kevin Friend din't think it was a penalty because otherwise I'm guessing he'd have pulled it back for the IDFK rather than play advantage? Like if you're trying to play advantage to one team and they then commit a foul, you can't allow the advantage to continue. Presumably at that point VAR didn't think it was a clear and obvious error although in my view it was. If Friend had shown a red card, by the way, it would remarkably have been the third time he'd sent off an away player at the Etihad in the last three games Manchester City have played there!

I still don't understand how Oggy wasn't sent off. As it happened I said to those around me that it was a pen and RC because the game hadn't stopped. The only reason for VAR not getting involved, which is incorrect as far as I am aware is that they class playing an advantage as the game stopping and restarting so a new phase of play.
 
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I still don't understand how Oggy wasn't sent off. As it happened I said to those around me that it was a pen and RC because the game hadn't stopped. The only reason for VAR not getting involved, which is incorrect as far as I am aware is that they class playing an advantage as the game stopping and restarting so a new phase of play.

No, they don’t. (And imagine if they did—VAR could never recommend review for SFP if the R played advantage on the foul.)

It’s totally possible that the VAR got lost in the protocol. It’s possible the VAR didn’t realize the OS was wrong and therefore didn’t look at the potential PK. It’s possible the VAR didn’t notice the PK potential in time to review. And in the PL, it’s very possible the VAR didn’t think it met the clear error standard. But beyond opining that it should have been reversed by VAR, we are only guessing at why—unless and until the powers that be choose to tell us what happened. (In the US MLS, we would get that explanation, including an explanation of why the VAR and R handled it properly or not.)
 
But beyond opining that it should have been reversed by VAR, we are only guessing at why—unless and until the powers that be choose to tell us what happened. (In the US MLS, we would get that explanation, including an explanation of why the VAR and R handled it properly or not.)
Communication that helps the situation? It will be a while before we see that whilst MR is in charge
 
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