Off the ball incident
- Thread starter JH
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If the referee hasn't seen it start the first thing I would be looking at is why he hasn't seen it. It could be obvious in that he was following play and the fight started behind their back, but I've also seen it where the referees created their own problems. The classic one being turning his back after a goal and a fight started when the attacker tried to wrestle the ball from the keeper.
I'd then be looking for how he deals with the aftermath. Ideally getting the two that caused it, but if he didn't see it start that might not be possible, so then did he get all of those that committed offences after he became aware of the problems.
In terms of the restart, again it comes down to whether he saw the start of the shenanigans or not. If he didn't then I would support a dropped ball.
Hi
A referee can only give what he sees. So if he does not see the offence he cannot give it. He could give the restart for what he does see yet that might be unfair if he missed the original offence.
It is not unusual for referees on their own to have offences committed behind their back with no neutral ARs.
Put it like this. The restart would be for the first offence that is committed. If it is not seen then no possible restart for that. It also comes down to integrity and what the referee can truthfully write for VC. If he has not seen it then he has to make it up. Dropped ball is probably the only viable decision from where the ball was when play was stopped for unseen offences.
I know of some who have walked both players saying that he *saw* what happened. If a player has blood running down his nose and he has retaliated against the offender then both are on their way.
A referee can only give what he sees. So if he does not see the offence he cannot give it. He could give the restart for what he does see yet that might be unfair if he missed the original offence.
It is not unusual for referees on their own to have offences committed behind their back with no neutral ARs.
Put it like this. The restart would be for the first offence that is committed. If it is not seen then no possible restart for that. It also comes down to integrity and what the referee can truthfully write for VC. If he has not seen it then he has to make it up. Dropped ball is probably the only viable decision from where the ball was when play was stopped for unseen offences.
I know of some who have walked both players saying that he *saw* what happened. If a player has blood running down his nose and he has retaliated against the offender then both are on their way.
It’s one of those awkward situations when you just see a snapshot of what may have occurred. You may have missed the first one or two reactions, sadly you can only ref what you saw first. This may also create secondary issues if you’ve clearly missed the original catalyst for whatever occurred. One may come off double whammy worst! Be prepared!
Russell Jones
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Difference here is that in your pre match briefing to your CARs you will have (hopefully!) made clear where the limits of their interventions lie. In and out of play and flag when an offside player touches the ball or interferes with an opponent but leave the fouls to me, tends to do the trick
And to be specific, you are not 'taking his word' on offsides, you are appreciating his, hopefully helpful, input.
Overall, with CARs, the logic of accepting imput from a potentially biased person will always be questionable but it's simply a question of weighing up the risks of that with the equally sizeable risks of trying to take 100% of decisions yourself
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Missing my point. Happy to take advice from a CAR over something you are already looking at, albeit not from a perfect position, but, not prepared to take advice from a CAR over something that you have not seen at all
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
Missing mine. Yes., because that's not the role you've given him
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
I say again, someone is happy to receive assistance on something that they are able to see for themselves, but, will not accept assistance on something that they cant possibly of seen
am sure that makes sense somewhere in the world...
am sure that makes sense somewhere in the world...
Russell Jones
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one
RefChat Addict
@Ciley Myrus, Yes it does make sense and Russell is saying what you are saying. In addition he is saying as long you have made that clear to your CAR, all is good.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
And you are going to act on the CAR advise when he advises "send off blue 6 headbutt" when you have 100% not seen it, or not been able to see if for yourself !!
You cant pick and choose what advice to act upon if you have 100% not seen the headbutt !!
Surely you need help on the things you cant see,not the things you can!
as ever, each to own, if you need a CAR to tell you ball is out of play then maybe you fitness level is not to the required standard in the first place
You cant pick and choose what advice to act upon if you have 100% not seen the headbutt !!
Surely you need help on the things you cant see,not the things you can!
as ever, each to own, if you need a CAR to tell you ball is out of play then maybe you fitness level is not to the required standard in the first place
You're the ref. That's exactly what you can do.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
You rely on help for a ball out of play at half way line, but wont accept help for an act of violent conduct?
Surely nobody has ever reported "in the 77th min on advice from my CAR I dismissed blue 6 for an act of violence which I did not see because it was behind my back?" !!!!
Surely nobody has ever reported "in the 77th min on advice from my CAR I dismissed blue 6 for an act of violence which I did not see because it was behind my back?" !!!!
You rely on potentially non-impartial help for a trivial decision, but stick to your own impartial view for a KIM? Why's that difficult to understand?
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
But you have not seen it !! so its impossible to have any opinion or take or view on what happened !!!
whats more important in the game? A throw in at half way line? or, dismissing the blue captain at 0-0 for a headbutt !!
you cant have an impartial view in my senario, because, its behind your back, you have not seen it !!
whats more important in the game? A throw in at half way line? or, dismissing the blue captain at 0-0 for a headbutt !!
you cant have an impartial view in my senario, because, its behind your back, you have not seen it !!
Your impartial viewpoint is whatever you see through your eyes. If you don't see it, you can't give it - and while you might be able to hedge your bets with non-impartial help for a minor decision like a throw, you can't with a KMI.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
So whats the merits of a CAR giving you a throw that you are looking at anyway, but not a KMI that you have not seen?
Surely if you are going to enlist help, you want help with the things you yourself cant call!
Surely if you are going to enlist help, you want help with the things you yourself cant call!
PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
Happened to me this season - youth county cup semi - turned round to see player strike another - no option but to send off. Didn't see what provoked it, so couldn't take any other action. DFK from where incident took place (ball was in play at the time) was the restart, after the red card.
Why would I let a CAR give a throw I've seen clearly? You seem to have a very strange idea of what people use CAR's for.
I'm the referee and I make the decisions. If I'm not sure, I have club assistants who I will I was allow to assist me as and when I feel it's appropriate to do so. I (and everyone else on this thread) have decided that it would not be appropriate to go purely on the say so of a club assistant for a KMI. Again, I'm struggling to understand why this is difficult to follow?
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