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Old school ref - how to provide advice?

E

es1

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Had a game yesterday (I helped out last minute) on a local cup semi final - ref was 'old school', not too much to disagree with in terms of major decision (9 yellows and sin bin all looked fine) though there were 3 errors in law which undermined his own credibility, and certainly his match control as well as the benches were aware of the mistakes.

I tried talking to him post match, didn't want to be too critical but found it hard to get my points across and I imagine similar mistakes will be made in future games.

1. Foot on the pitch when taking a throw (with it on the line as well) was given as a foul throw - this was just before half time so I advised him he was wrong during the break.
2. Player receiving treatment wasn't made to go off until I waved him over.
3. Player whistled on from his sin bin during open play (ball in keepers hands) - play restarted with ball still in keepers hands, no drop-ball.

I know we've had similar discussions before about credibility of officials, particularly long term L5s, who don't receive any training but how far could I have gone? Would you do any different? This was a cup game between 2 top Sunday league teams and, as the losing bench suggested, they deserve a ref who knows the laws...

Is there a place for mandatory training every so often...or does that just risk losing more refs in the long term?
 
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es1 said:
Had a game yesterday (I helped out last minute) on a local cup semi final - ref was 'old school', not too much to disagree with in terms of major decision (9 yellows and sin bin all looked fine) though there were 3 errors in law which undermined his own credibility, and certainly his match control as well as the benches were aware of the mistakes.

I tried talking to him post match, didn't want to be too critical but found it hard to get my points across and I imagine similar mistakes will be made in future games.

1. Foot on the pitch when taking a throw (with it on the line as well) was given as a foul throw - this was just before half time so I advised him he was wrong during the break.
2. Player receiving treatment wasn't made to go off until I waved him over.
3. Player whistled on from his sin bin during open play (ball in keepers hands) - play restarted with ball still in keepers hands, no drop-ball.

I know we've had similar discussions before about credibility of officials, particularly long term L5s, who don't receive any training but how far could I have gone? Would you do any different? This was a cup game between 2 top Sunday league teams and, as the losing bench suggested, they deserve a ref who knows the laws...

Is there a place for mandatory training every so often...or does that just risk losing more refs in the long term?
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I dunno but whenever I suggest an L3 is wrong in Law, it's at the risk my relationship with that Ref is jeopardised. I therefore don't bother any more. Its like, 'who are you (L4) to know something I dont'?
 
I went through the three examples, couldn't really tell if he cared/wanted the feedback!

I guess that's the thing though (and present all over the world in many industries) how do you tell someone more senior than you they they're wrong...
 
es1 said:
Had a game yesterday (I helped out last minute) on a local cup semi final - ref was 'old school', not too much to disagree with in terms of major decision (9 yellows and sin bin all looked fine) though there were 3 errors in law which undermined his own credibility, and certainly his match control as well as the benches were aware of the mistakes.

I tried talking to him post match, didn't want to be too critical but found it hard to get my points across and I imagine similar mistakes will be made in future games.

1. Foot on the pitch when taking a throw (with it on the line as well) was given as a foul throw - this was just before half time so I advised him he was wrong during the break.
2. Player receiving treatment wasn't made to go off until I waved him over.
3. Player whistled on from his sin bin during open play (ball in keepers hands) - play restarted with ball still in keepers hands, no drop-ball.

I know we've had similar discussions before about credibility of officials, particularly long term L5s, who don't receive any training but how far could I have gone? Would you do any different? This was a cup game between 2 top Sunday league teams and, as the losing bench suggested, they deserve a ref who knows the laws...

Is there a place for mandatory training every so often...or does that just risk losing more refs in the long term?
Click to expand...

Unless I'm misreading / misunderstanding it, number 3 isn't actually incorrect is it? Players can re-enter from a sin-bin during open play as long as they aren't having an immediate impact on play, similar to a player coming back on from receiving treatment. Only differences are if the sin binned player is a GK, he can not go back in goal until a break in play, or alternatively if they have substituted the sin-binned player.

Edit: Just re-read this and noticed the 'whistled on' bit. Assuming this means he actually blew the whistle, then that changes things.
Had he just called the player on, no issue. Blowing the whistle stops the game, which he shouldn't do, and then after he has the restart could only be a dropped ball.

Big Cat said:
I dunno but whenever I suggest an L3 is wrong in Law, it's at the risk my relationship with that Ref is jeopardised. I therefore don't bother any more. Its like, 'who are you (L4) to know something I dont'?
Click to expand...

I was highly upset when we were questioning if I was correct in law, as I'm sure you could tell. I don't think our relationship could be repaired from this point ;)
 
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es1 said:
Had a game yesterday (I helped out last minute) on a local cup semi final - ref was 'old school', not too much to disagree with in terms of major decision (9 yellows and sin bin all looked fine) though there were 3 errors in law which undermined his own credibility, and certainly his match control as well as the benches were aware of the mistakes.

I tried talking to him post match, didn't want to be too critical but found it hard to get my points across and I imagine similar mistakes will be made in future games.

1. Foot on the pitch when taking a throw (with it on the line as well) was given as a foul throw - this was just before half time so I advised him he was wrong during the break.
2. Player receiving treatment wasn't made to go off until I waved him over.
3. Player whistled on from his sin bin during open play (ball in keepers hands) - play restarted with ball still in keepers hands, no drop-ball.

I know we've had similar discussions before about credibility of officials, particularly long term L5s, who don't receive any training but how far could I have gone? Would you do any different? This was a cup game between 2 top Sunday league teams and, as the losing bench suggested, they deserve a ref who knows the laws...

Is there a place for mandatory training every so often...or does that just risk losing more refs in the long term?
Click to expand...
I started this as a 3 line response, then it organically developed, sooooo.....

Situation by situation...
1) What was the impact on the game?
2) When and where did it happen relative to your position? Were you being "busy"? Aaaannndddd... what was the impact on the game?
3) What was the impact on the game?

As for the losing team (wow a losing team complaining, you surprise me Elliott), did they know for sure or were they just complaining for the sake of covering up their own deficiencies.

Personally I wouldn't have spoiled the old person's day in the sun. Mandatory CPD in any profession (like annual online retraining etc.) is too often narrow in outlook, lacks depth and adds little value. It is far more difficult to train an experienced person than a noob. This is because the experienced person compares all input to their prior experience and because of confirmation bias, they reject the majority of the new content within a topic they believe they already know everything about.

I can fully understand your level of frustration watching someone get it wrong (just like I did when working Conference North games as an Observer - try getting the message through to those guys without marks riding on it). I think you did as much as you could during the game.

Perhaps consider a pre-emptive approach by asking questions before the game
1) If I see a foul throw (aka this player with his foot half on/off the field when throwing the ball) what do you want me to do?
2) When players get injured and treated, do you want me to let them back on when I think it's safe or should I ask the FO to look after that?
3) When players are due to come back after a sin bin... (see above)?

An experienced referee will appreciate you asking them as they are the leader of their team on the day. They will also be more willing to listen than if you tell them during the game and potentially undermining them.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
I started this as a 3 line response, then it organically developed, sooooo.....

Situation by situation...
1) What was the impact on the game?
2) When and where did it happen relative to your position? Were you being "busy"? Aaaannndddd... what was the impact on the game?
3) What was the impact on the game?

As for the losing team (wow a losing team complaining, you surprise me Elliott), did they know for sure or were they just complaining for the sake of covering up their own deficiencies.

Personally I wouldn't have spoiled the old person's day in the sun. Mandatory CPD in any profession (like annual online retraining etc.) is too often narrow in outlook, lacks depth and adds little value. It is far more difficult to train an experienced person than a noob. This is because the experienced person compares all input to their prior experience and because of confirmation bias, they reject the majority of the new content within a topic they believe they already know everything about.

I can fully understand your level of frustration watching someone get it wrong (just like I did when working Conference North games as an Observer - try getting the message through to those guys without marks riding on it). I think you did as much as you could during the game.

Perhaps consider a pre-emptive approach by asking questions before the game
1) If I see a foul throw (aka this player with his foot half on/off the field when throwing the ball) what do you want me to do?
2) When players get injured and treated, do you want me to let them back on when I think it's safe or should I ask the FO to look after that?
3) When players are due to come back after a sin bin... (see above)?

An experienced referee will appreciate you asking them as they are the leader of their team on the day. They will also be more willing to listen than if you tell them during the game and potentially undermining them.
Click to expand...

Totally valid points...and yes, losing team complaining I know, but mistakes in law seem reasonable grounds for complaints rather than subjective decisions and of course, in extreme cases leave you open to the match being replayed.

They clearly knew the law for the second one and wanted it enforcing, quite rightly, as the player (tall midfielder) was about to attack a free kick. They recognised the 'foul throw' as a mistake but weren't too bothered about it. No one else noted the restart issue and bearing in mind the result from a drop ball would have been the same I didn't get involved - in summary I don't think I was being busy at all.

The questions are a good thought, they weren't covered in his pre-match - I shall be more proactive with this aspect next time!
 
es1 said:
Totally valid points...and yes, losing team complaining I know, but mistakes in law seem reasonable grounds for complaints rather than subjective decisions and of course, in extreme cases leave you open to the match being replayed.

They clearly knew the law for the second one and wanted it enforcing, quite rightly, as the player (tall midfielder) was about to attack a free kick. They recognised the 'foul throw' as a mistake but weren't too bothered about it. No one else noted the restart issue and bearing in mind the result from a drop ball would have been the same I didn't get involved - in summary I don't think I was being busy at all.

The questions are a good thought, they weren't covered in his pre-match - I shall be more proactive with this aspect next time!
Click to expand...
In my pre-match, I try to make a point of saying 'above all else, don't let me be the only person in the ground who either has or hasn't seen something major, and don't let me restart play if I'm incorrect in law'.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
I started this as a 3 line response, then it organically developed, sooooo.....

Situation by situation...
1) What was the impact on the game?
2) When and where did it happen relative to your position? Were you being "busy"? Aaaannndddd... what was the impact on the game?
3) What was the impact on the game?
Click to expand...
Spoken (written?) like a true Observer Sir!! ;) :D
 
Big Cat said:
I dunno but whenever I suggest an L3 is wrong in Law, it's at the risk my relationship with that Ref is jeopardised. I therefore don't bother any more. Its like, 'who are you (L4) to know something I dont'?
Click to expand...
Made a similar mistake with an RDO recently who sent out a blanket e mail quoting something that was incorrect in law. I e mailed back suggesting error and seeking clarification/opinion .... the individual has totally blanked me ... !! :rolleyes:
 
I've long held the opinion that there should be mandatory training, and exams, at least every couple of years. There are referees, and I've seen some first hand, who haven't made any effort to keep up with laws and are still applying those from 20 years ago. I saw one referee cause utter chaos when he insisted that goals kicks had to leave the penalty area, the players were trying to tell him he was wrong but he just wanting having it and it led to several cautions. Leading the second problem that the players cautioned for dissent weren't sin binned.

Of course the counter argument is there is already a shortage of referees and doing this would just make it worse.
 
RustyRef said:
I've long held the opinion that there should be mandatory training, and exams, at least every couple of years. There are referees, and I've seen some first hand, who haven't made any effort to keep up with laws and are still applying those from 20 years ago. I saw one referee cause utter chaos when he insisted that goals kicks had to leave the penalty area, the players were trying to tell him he was wrong but he just wanting having it and it led to several cautions. Leading the second problem that the players cautioned for dissent weren't sin binned.

Of course the counter argument is there is already a shortage of referees and doing this would just make it worse.
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This is exactly the issue
 
I've tried to correct two referees in law during the game as an assistant. Both times I was coming at in a completely nice and looking to help them out way. Both times with an observer there.

1st. Attacking player get tackled hard, referee gets a quick yellow out for C1(FT) reckless for the Defender, Attacking player receives treatment. Then is asked to come off the pitch after receiving treatment. Flag referee over whisper: "you've sent him to the side, but the player was booked, so he can stay on". Referee told me I was wrong as he had already issued the caution and the injury was then picked up on after the caution was issued and played on. At full-time before the observer came in he told me not to undermine him on the pitch.

2nd. Player screams right next to me, "that's a yellow ref, that's a yellow, it is a f***ing yellow ref". Observer is stood right behind me and makes a very obvious comment about this. Flag ref over and whisper: "He's asked for a yellow card very loudly and publicly, several times". Referee told not needed for his match control. Moves on. Full-time happens, reality of the situation dawns on referee that observer was stood behind me, he has probably gotten one wrong in law and I mentioned the observer made a very obvious comment about it. So he starts accusing me of changing what I said so on and so forth. Told me to tell the observer I had called him over to say I found dissent to be a little high...

Referees are a tricky bunch.
 
OldNavyRef said:
I've tried to correct two referees in law during the game as an assistant. Both times I was coming at in a completely nice and looking to help them out way. Both times with an observer there.

1st. Attacking player get tackled hard, referee gets a quick yellow out for C1(FT) reckless for the Defender, Attacking player receives treatment. Then is asked to come off the pitch after receiving treatment. Flag referee over whisper: "you've sent him to the side, but the player was booked, so he can stay on". Referee told me I was wrong as he had already issued the caution and the injury was then picked up on after the caution was issued and played on. At full-time before the observer came in he told me not to undermine him on the pitch.

2nd. Player screams right next to me, "that's a yellow ref, that's a yellow, it is a f***ing yellow ref". Observer is stood right behind me and makes a very obvious comment about this. Flag ref over and whisper: "He's asked for a yellow card very loudly and publicly, several times". Referee told not needed for his match control. Moves on. Full-time happens, reality of the situation dawns on referee that observer was stood behind me, he has probably gotten one wrong in law and I mentioned the observer made a very obvious comment about it. So he starts accusing me of changing what I said so on and so forth. Told me to tell the observer I had called him over to say I found dissent to be a little high...

Referees are a tricky bunch.
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We’re all mates, but in competition, and some people are defensive and think you are out to get them. Some people have a very self-centered approach. Yours seems like my attitude, just try to do the best possible and help. I wouldn’t get caught in some deceit. Let this ref make that rod. If you do get quality time with an observer, go through the scenario again and ask for advice.
 
santa sangria said:
We’re all mates, but in competition, and some people are defensive and think you are out to get them. Some people have a very self-centered approach. Yours seems like my attitude, just try to do the best possible and help. I wouldn’t get caught in some deceit. Let this ref make that rod. If you do get quality time with an observer, go through the scenario again and ask for advice.
Click to expand...
They were level 4s trying to get their 3s and it is the end of the season. So they need not good games, they need perfect games.

Pressure is immense. They don't know me, aren't local or likely to work with me again. They just see me as some ass trying to get inflated lino scores by throwing them under the bus.

For me who is learning, I'm somewhat enjoying myself.

Not these guys, they are on a mission. Often they have travelled 2 hours+ and just need the game to go flawlessly. There's me offering a 'working well with the refereeing team opportunity'. But for them, they see it as an attack on their overall image/vibe/confidence in front of the observer.
 
OldNavyRef said:
They were level 4s trying to get their 3s and it is the end of the season. So they need not good games, they need perfect games.

Pressure is immense. They don't know me, aren't local or likely to work with me again. They just see me as some ass trying to get inflated lino scores by throwing them under the bus.

For me who is learning, I'm somewhat enjoying myself.

Not these guys, they are on a mission. Often they have travelled 2 hours+ and just need the game to go flawlessly. There's me offering a 'working well with the refereeing team opportunity'. But for them, they see it as an attack on their overall image/vibe/confidence in front of the observer.
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I get that.

But if this ref was that good… in #1 he would have taken your advice constructively and not tried to undermine you. Even better he would told you in the prematch. “I only want you to call me over if I have a missed KMI or wrong player.” “Treatment’s gonna take time, so he needs to go off.” “Thanks for alerting me to that, that’s something I could put in the prematch next time.”

In #2 it goes both ways. If you stop the game for your ref to gives dissent caution don’t ask, tell. Your ref doesn’t need any doubt. But the ref should not be asking you to lie or throw you under the bus - a good observer will see straight through this and question the ref’s teamwork - and quite rightly.

Don’t break the team! is our collective responsibility. Your ref needed to grow some this time;)
 
Sorry to add something more. There’s a learning point here for referees aggressive about promotion. Being self-disciplined, ambitious, strident, all good.

But - I am in a promotion-review-committee with 20 observers/seniors and one of the things that a lot of them pick up on - and do not like - is arrogance and inability to take/give constructive criticism.
 
@OldNavyRef

1) Tell him what was said exactly.

2) If the yellow was flashed then he can't technically stay on as the assessment wouldn't have been completed quickly.
Not a situation for you to give public input
 
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es1 said:
The questions are a good thought, they weren't covered in his pre-match - I shall be more proactive with this aspect next time!
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That almost reads like a promotion hopeful's response with an undertone of f*** off :)

Hope you're looking after yourself Mr S. Take care.
 
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