Personal Hearing Advice

[Matthew]

It's (fortunately) been quite a few years since I've had to attend a personal hearing, but I have one coming up later this week. For context, an U16 manager was dismissed for leaving the technical area to get involved with/argue with a player, which led to a mass confrontation between both sets of players and coaches. The manager has requested a hearing and I've been asked to attend as a witness.

I've only ever attended two personal hearings and I've had not great experiences both times. In the first one I was 17 years old, absolutely terrified, and had a less than helpful panel who were unbelievably rude to me. The second one came after I was assaulted and in that one, one of the witnesses became irate and shouted at me multiple times, with the panel doing nothing to prevent it and I then had to watch as the player brought in a procession of witnesses who I know were not actually present at the game. Both times the charges have been found "not proven".

I'm 100% happy with and confident in the decision that I made and my report is to-the-point, factual and does not contain any opinion or conjecture. I know that I will be asked questions and I am happy to answer as required, but I'm inclined to just stand behind my report as I don't think there's anything else that needs to be said.

I'm already worried about the hearing, so wondering if anyone has any advice on what to do/what to expect?

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Is it on Zoom? The great majority are nowadays, which reduces the opportunity for belligerent/threatening behaviour by club officials and players. In England, the panel may be from different counties, just forming a panel via Zoom as instructed by The FA.
If it's an in-person hearing, you will initially be asked whether you have anything to add. The answer should be "No thank you"
If it's in-person, remember that the panel will observe the body language and facial expressions of those present, so a subtle shake of the head and/or grimace is no bad thing if the manager starts to say something untrue.
You're not on trial, you're a witness. Tell the truth if required to say anything at all. If you have a paper copy of your report take it with you to refer to if necessary.
You've done your bit - it's up to the panel now.
Hope it goes well.

 

[OIREF!]

I've only ever had one personal hearing and thankfully my experience was reasonably positive. However, they can be a daunting experience for a referee. Normally you are permitted to bring someone with you and your RA should support you on this if requested.

 

[Matthew]

Is it on Zoom? The great majority are nowadays, which reduces the opportunity for belligerent/threatening behaviour by club officials and players. In England, the panel may be from different counties, just forming a panel via Zoom as instructed by The FA.
If it's an in-person hearing, you will initially be asked whether you have anything to add. The answer should be "No thank you"
If it's in-person, remember that the panel will observe the body language and facial expressions of those present, so a subtle shake of the head and/or grimace is no bad thing if the manager starts to say something untrue.
You're not on trial, you're a witness. Tell the truth if required to say anything at all. If you have a paper copy of your report take it with you to refer to if necessary.
You've done your bit - it's up to the panel now.
Hope it goes well.

This one is on Teams, so that hopefully removes some of the anxiety for me.

 

[Matthew]

So the hearing went ahead earlier this week, and I’ve come away feeling pretty terrible.

The accused manager had a number of witnesses, including the opposition coach (who incidentally had thanked me after the game for making the right decision), who claimed that events didn’t unfold as they did. In addition, the manager had provided a pack of evidence which I understand I am not able to see as a witness, but he was allowed to ask me questions about that evidence. There’s no way that can be right - how can I be asked questions about specific details of evidence that I have not seen?

The charge was found not proven. Ultimately, the teams have closed ranks and as a sole referee with no other witnesses, the outcome was inevitable.

I understand that the panel have to go with the evidence they’re given, but the implication from the manager was that I had lied. He said so many things that were untrue and also told me off for interrupting him during the Teams meeting. I did not say a word and was on mute whilst he was speaking, but nobody from the panel said a word or corrected him.

It leaves me once again questioning whether it’s worth carrying on. You do your best to deal with poor behaviour, and put hours into reports and hearings, only to be given no support from the FA and to be made to feel awful.

 

[Kent Ref]

So the hearing went ahead earlier this week, and I’ve come away feeling pretty terrible.

The accused manager had a number of witnesses, including the opposition coach (who incidentally had thanked me after the game for making the right decision), who claimed that events didn’t unfold as they did. In addition, the manager had provided a pack of evidence which I understand I am not able to see as a witness, but he was allowed to ask me questions about that evidence. There’s no way that can be right - how can I be asked questions about specific details of evidence that I have not seen?

The charge was found not proven. Ultimately, the teams have closed ranks and as a sole referee with no other witnesses, the outcome was inevitable.

I understand that the panel have to go with the evidence they’re given, but the implication from the manager was that I had lied. He said so many things that were untrue and also told me off for interrupting him during the Teams meeting. I did not say a word and was on mute whilst he was speaking, but nobody from the panel said a word or corrected him.

It leaves me once again questioning whether it’s worth carrying on. You do your best to deal with poor behaviour, and put hours into reports and hearings, only to be given no support from the FA and to be made to feel awful.

I am sorry to hear about your ordeal.

Managers lie and cheat - it's annoying. Justice has not been served. All this emphasis of "you're just a witness" is not true. You were a witness that was not believed and made to feel like a liar.

When i started reffing nearly 30 years ago the system was totally biased AGAINST clubs. This was wrong. Bad refs got away with so much.

Things changed and the pendulum swung towards even handedness.

But the pendulum just kept on going and now the county FA's rely on money from the clubs heavily so don't want to upset their paymasters.

As referees, we just "work for the county FA" and their interest in us is mainly financial (making them money) and reffing their cup games.

I'm now towards the end of my time as a referee but how things have changed (for the worse).

 

[DJIC]

So the hearing went ahead earlier this week, and I’ve come away feeling pretty terrible.

The accused manager had a number of witnesses, including the opposition coach (who incidentally had thanked me after the game for making the right decision), who claimed that events didn’t unfold as they did. In addition, the manager had provided a pack of evidence which I understand I am not able to see as a witness, but he was allowed to ask me questions about that evidence. There’s no way that can be right - how can I be asked questions about specific details of evidence that I have not seen?

The charge was found not proven. Ultimately, the teams have closed ranks and as a sole referee with no other witnesses, the outcome was inevitable.

I understand that the panel have to go with the evidence they’re given, but the implication from the manager was that I had lied. He said so many things that were untrue and also told me off for interrupting him during the Teams meeting. I did not say a word and was on mute whilst he was speaking, but nobody from the panel said a word or corrected him.

It leaves me once again questioning whether it’s worth carrying on. You do your best to deal with poor behaviour, and put hours into reports and hearings, only to be given no support from the FA and to be made to feel awful.

Really sorry and disappointed to hear how your ordeal went.

Did your local RA or appointments secretary support in anyway?

We need to get body cams authorised so this closing ranks cannot happen. Most grass roots scenarios, there is one referee’s witness statement against any number of colluding witnesses from the clubs.

I would gladly wear one, I am intrigued how/if step 5 team benches will moderate their behaviour if it is being recorded by AR1?

 

[GraemeS]

Really sorry and disappointed to hear how your ordeal went.

Did your local RA or appointments secretary support in anyway?

We need to get body cams authorised so this closing ranks cannot happen. Most grass roots scenarios, there is one referee’s witness statement against any number of colluding witnesses from the clubs.

I would gladly wear one, I am intrigued how/if step 5 team benches will moderate their behaviour if it is being recorded by AR1?

Or, just believe referees? Much cheaper, much simpler and doesn't add a dozen extra things for officials to worry about.

 

[RustyRef]

Or, just believe referees? Much cheaper, much simpler and doesn't add a dozen extra things for officials to worry about.

It isn't that straight forward. I've sat on all three sides of this fence: as a referee, as a manager, and as a member or even chair of the discipline panel. When I was there as a manager the referee had been 100% incorrect in sending off my player, he had said the player deliberately elbowed an opponent off the ball, and he maintained this at the appeal. It simply hadn't happened, and if he was "just believed" an innocent player would have been suspended. As it happens there was such a weight of evidence, with even a statement from the player that was supposedly struck saying it didn't happen, that the case was found not proven.

When on the panel I have seen referees who very obviously weren't clear what had happened. Their evidence didn't match what they had written, and that almost always leads to the case being not proven. Again, the players or clubs in these instances have every right to a fair appeal, sometimes referees eyes or minds do play tricks on them and they see something that simply hasn't happen.

I've been to loads as a referee, I went through a period where I went to so many that the CFA joked that I should be given a season ticket. And yes, I've had players and managers blatantly lie about what had happened. It is frustrating, but as a referee all you can do is try to keep calm and stick to exactly what is in your report. Once you add anything, appear to be riled, even things just like shaking your head as the lies are told, you are letting the club win. That's what they want, but more often than not they will trip themselves up by giving contradictory evidence and a good commission will ask questions that lead to them tripping themselves up.

Remember as well it is much more in the favour of the referee these days, previously players could appeal OFFINABUS red cards and as a result there were far more hearings, it is much better now as they cannot be appealed, and for others the onus is on the player / club to prove that the referee was clearly wrong to issue the red card.

 

[Josh the referee]

When on the panel I have seen referees who very obviously weren't clear what had happened.

Surely that's because CFA's take months to organise the hearings? Doesn't suit any party when it takes that long especially because Referees aren't gonna vividly remember everything that happened in that period of time.

 

[RustyRef]

Surely that's because CFA's take months to organise the hearings? Doesn't suit any party when it takes that long especially because Referees aren't gonna vividly remember everything that happened in that period of time.

Not valid now, there are very strict timelines on when hearings have to be held.

Also not sure I'd agree, when situations occur that are serious enough to result in a hearing your remember them for years. I can vividly remember every one I have been involved in, and that is going back as far as 20 years.

 

[Zimmyman]

It's (fortunately) been quite a few years since I've had to attend a personal hearing, but I have one coming up later this week. For context, an U16 manager was dismissed for leaving the technical area to get involved with/argue with a player, which led to a mass confrontation between both sets of players and coaches. The manager has requested a hearing and I've been asked to attend as a witness.

I've only ever attended two personal hearings and I've had not great experiences both times. In the first one I was 17 years old, absolutely terrified, and had a less than helpful panel who were unbelievably rude to me. The second one came after I was assaulted and in that one, one of the witnesses became irate and shouted at me multiple times, with the panel doing nothing to prevent it and I then had to watch as the player brought in a procession of witnesses who I know were not actually present at the game. Both times the charges have been found "not proven".

I'm 100% happy with and confident in the decision that I made and my report is to-the-point, factual and does not contain any opinion or conjecture. I know that I will be asked questions and I am happy to answer as required, but I'm inclined to just stand behind my report as I don't think there's anything else that needs to be said.

I'm already worried about the hearing, so wondering if anyone has any advice on what to do/what to expect?

Have to say I just had the result from my personal hearing and it came out very favourable for me
And I have to say his fair and good the hearing was
The defendant got not proven on one charge and proven on another so with a lengthy ban and a big enough fine coming his way justice was done for me and match officials alike
So anyone with a hearing coming up stick in there tell the truth as that prevails all the time particularly when there are lies being said against one

 

[santa sangria]

So the hearing went ahead earlier this week, and I’ve come away feeling pretty terrible.

The accused manager had a number of witnesses, including the opposition coach (who incidentally had thanked me after the game for making the right decision), who claimed that events didn’t unfold as they did. In addition, the manager had provided a pack of evidence which I understand I am not able to see as a witness, but he was allowed to ask me questions about that evidence. There’s no way that can be right - how can I be asked questions about specific details of evidence that I have not seen?

The charge was found not proven. Ultimately, the teams have closed ranks and as a sole referee with no other witnesses, the outcome was inevitable.

I understand that the panel have to go with the evidence they’re given, but the implication from the manager was that I had lied. He said so many things that were untrue and also told me off for interrupting him during the Teams meeting. I did not say a word and was on mute whilst he was speaking, but nobody from the panel said a word or corrected him.

It leaves me once again questioning whether it’s worth carrying on. You do your best to deal with poor behaviour, and put hours into reports and hearings, only to be given no support from the FA and to be made to feel awful.

That is awful. Gutted for you. I would totally understand if you walked away. If you do, please give the relevant people this feedback.

The evidence part, I’d have walked away then. Embarrassing process for the football authorities. So sorry.