A&H

Refereeing by Reaction

GraemeS

GraemeS

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Level 5 Referee
So, I had a game today, home team were 1-0 up towards the start of the 2nd half and then the away team got a corner - with previous assessors advice to vary my position in mind, I've taken up a position on the edge of the D on the same side (LB side) as the corner taker. The ball is swung in towards the far post, a number of players jump towards the ball and the away team's big defender gets the ball in the net. And all hell broke loose, with 5 of the home team's players immediately sprinting towards me, "suggesting" that the ball had been put in by the away team player's hand.

Obviously I didn't see this and so as far as I'm concerned, there's no way I can disallow the goal - and eventually I had to caution for dissent one of the players that came towards me at that point, and another one a few minutes later who'd clearly lost his head over this incident. But something about the unity of the home team's reaction struck me - the reaction was immediate and all of them were claiming the exact same thing (along with the standard claims a few minutes later of "even they're saying it was handball!).

Looking back at it now, I'd bet money that it was a handball - but even with this strong suspicion, if I didn't see a handball, surely I'm right to let the goal stand? And given that this incident has happened, how am I supposed to regain match control after that?
 
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An assessor shouldn't be recommending that position with CARs

Should always be on the goal line. Makes it easier to spot these incidences and whether the balls crossed the line

NARs is a different matter
 
HertsFinest said:
An assessor shouldn't be recommending that position with CARs

Should always be on the goal line. Makes it easier to spot these incidences and whether the balls crossed the line

NARs is a different matter
Click to expand...

Contrary to what you've written, I've had several senior assessors and my former RDO say to me that standing on the goal line at a corner is outright wrong.

If play breaks upfield you are going to be in a situation where pretty much every player is closer to play than you. You have to get around a mass of players and then catch up with play which is probably 40 yards ahead of you now.
 
Go wider.

It's better than missing a match deciding situation such as the one described.

If you're slow possibly. But in rarely outpaced by even the fastest winger on the field

Works for some i guess not for others.
 
The advice was to "vary" my position - so for this incident, I was on the "wrong" side compared to my instinctive position, plus I'd normally go a little wider and/or deeper into the box. But there had been a bit of pushing and shoving on the keeper in previous incidents, so that was the focus.

"Not outpaced by the fastest winger"??? That would imply that you're up there as one of the fastest 3 people on the pitch. I'm not unfit, but I'm not fast - I can keep up with play, but I'm not going to be able to catch up from the goal line once they have the head-start that a hoofed clearance would give.
 
HertsFinest said:
Go wider.

It's better than missing a match deciding situation such as the one described.

If you're slow possibly. But in rarely outpaced by even the fastest winger on the field

Works for some i guess not for others.
Click to expand...

If that's what you want to do then that's your own choice, but you will get pulled up by assessors. A goal line position is often used by older referees since it was the adopted position a fair bit back, but the guidance has since changed and the accepted position is on the pretty much following the D but a bit further into the box where applicable. I was pulled up on taking a goal line position after been advised to do so by a referee appointment secretary, my mentor advised me not to, my former RDO who is a PGMOL official backed him up and it was then further backed up by a contrib assessor.

As I said, if you believe it's better to do something, do it, but if you do it when you're being assessed you're costing yourself pointlessly.
 
I've been thinking about these scenarios lately because I have found myself questioning the advice given by more or less all assessors/coaches at grassroots level.

I have found that for corners, the standard position given by almost all of my assessors is just back from the corner of the goal area, so that you can see the goal line incase there is a close call to make, that is the explanation that I've been given for taking up that position, and whilst the assessors that I've had say that I should vary my positions (like the OP), the default position should always be at the far side from the kick just back from the corner of the goal area.

Now I have thought about it quite a bit and I keep disagreeing with this, I would much prefer to take a position, similar to that of the professional game referees, in roughly the side of the penalty arc, moving my position as the ball is played. That way, I believe you have a much clearer view of what is going on in the PA.

Does anyone agree/disagree with me? (I'm talking about positioning without NAR's btw)
 
GraemeS said:
The advice was to "vary" my position - so for this incident, I was on the "wrong" side compared to my instinctive position, plus I'd normally go a little wider and/or deeper into the box. But there had been a bit of pushing and shoving on the keeper in previous incidents, so that was the focus.

"Not outpaced by the fastest winger"??? That would imply that you're up there as one of the fastest 3 people on the pitch. I'm not unfit, but I'm not fast - I can keep up with play, but I'm not going to be able to catch up from the goal line once they have the head-start that a hoofed clearance would give.
Click to expand...

Was a 100m sprinter back in my college days so not much over takes me.

Unfortunately my feet aren't quite as good hence the whistle! :D
 
HertsFinest said:
Funny as I've been told by every assessor (bar none) to be on the goal line when using CARs
Click to expand...
I've also been told by an assessor to do it. The assessor made a point of telling me before the game that it was what he expected. He told me because he knew it was contrary to the correct guidance.
 
HertsFinest said:
Should always be on the goal line. Makes it easier to spot these incidences and whether the balls crossed the line
Click to expand...

Never stand on the goal line.
One quick clearance upfield and you're suddenly 50+ yards away from play.
By all means get a bit further (and wider) into the penalty area if need be, but standing on the goal line will mean you'll see even less through a crowded goalmouth anyway.

@GraemeS Missing this "handball" incident is no different to appeals for a penalty that you may or may not give.
If you didn't see it - you can't penalise for it - irrespective of however convincing the appeal is.
As for your positioning - where you start isn't that important, it's where you are when the ball reaches the drop zone that's important. It's only assessors that are obsessed with your starting position at corners. ;) All you have to do is vary your movement just before or as soon as the ball is kicked and keep the players guessing. :)
 
In response to Kes and Yorkshire, I'm going to copy a post I made in another thread:

i disagree. Personally, when I have a club AR, I position myself at restarts like I have no AR at all. What's the most important decision you would have to make at a corner? close goal/no goal....tossup between penalty or offside after that, ball curving out then in at the kick following that.
Positioning is all about averages. Good position for one thing, sacrifices your capacity for another. The best positions are just the ones most likely to see the most likely type of incident at a given field location. With a neutral AR he's got offside, ball in / out of play so all you need to think about are penalties, and the break. Without a neutral AR, you suddenly have to deal with offside, goal/no goal and ball in/out of play on top of everything else.
A traditional corner position is usually the best position for penalties and the counterattack, but useless for ball in/out of play, fairly ordinary for offside, and some penalty appeals will still be blocked.
Standing off the goal line (always on the near side) means you're in a perfect position for the most likely, most significant events - ball in/out of goal, ball in/out of play as the ball is kicked. Still in an excellent position to view anything in the box (and you can spot some things you can't see from outside). The only weaknesses are:
1)If the ball is crossed to the far side of the PA and there's still heavy traffic
2)If the ball is cleared.

The latter isn't that major a point - 99% of the time if cleared it will go out, it will get held up near the halfway line, or if there's a foul it's quite a blatant one that you can see from the next suburb. It's very, very rare that I've felt unable to spot a foul from a breakaway. Maybe if you're a bit older and you'll run the 100 in 45 seconds you might be in trouble, but I strongly believe this problem is highly overstated - and is more than outweighed by the benefits of what else you can see.

At the levels where you don't have a NAR, I think that varying your position is unnecessary.

As for the original question - the fact that everybody shouted means absolutely nothing. How many times have you very clearly seen something and everybody has still reacted in the same way that you disagree with? It doesn't mean squat.
Realistically it could be that it was close to his hand and the bias the players have lead them to jump to a conclusion. It could also be 1 or 2 people screamed for it first and everybody else jumped on the bandwagon. It means absolutely nothing.
It could also have been accidental handling - so of course they'll scream for that.

Usually I'll recommend getting away from the goal pretty quickly if you can - but you don't want to run upfield if opponents are still in the PA in case something poor happens.
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
In response to Kes and Yorkshire, I'm going to copy a post I made in another thread:

i disagree. Personally, when I have a club AR, I position myself at restarts like I have no AR at all. What's the most important decision you would have to make at a corner? close goal/no goal....tossup between penalty or offside after that, ball curving out then in at the kick following that.
Positioning is all about averages. Good position for one thing, sacrifices your capacity for another. The best positions are just the ones most likely to see the most likely type of incident at a given field location. With a neutral AR he's got offside, ball in / out of play so all you need to think about are penalties, and the break. Without a neutral AR, you suddenly have to deal with offside, goal/no goal and ball in/out of play on top of everything else.
A traditional corner position is usually the best position for penalties and the counterattack, but useless for ball in/out of play, fairly ordinary for offside, and some penalty appeals will still be blocked.
Standing off the goal line (always on the near side) means you're in a perfect position for the most likely, most significant events - ball in/out of goal, ball in/out of play as the ball is kicked. Still in an excellent position to view anything in the box (and you can spot some things you can't see from outside). The only weaknesses are:
1)If the ball is crossed to the far side of the PA and there's still heavy traffic
2)If the ball is cleared.

The latter isn't that major a point - 99% of the time if cleared it will go out, it will get held up near the halfway line, or if there's a foul it's quite a blatant one that you can see from the next suburb. It's very, very rare that I've felt unable to spot a foul from a breakaway. Maybe if you're a bit older and you'll run the 100 in 45 seconds you might be in trouble, but I strongly believe this problem is highly overstated - and is more than outweighed by the benefits of what else you can see.

At the levels where you don't have a NAR, I think that varying your position is unnecessary.

As for the original question - the fact that everybody shouted means absolutely nothing. How many times have you very clearly seen something and everybody has still reacted in the same way that you disagree with? It doesn't mean squat.
Realistically it could be that it was close to his hand and the bias the players have lead them to jump to a conclusion. It could also be 1 or 2 people screamed for it first and everybody else jumped on the bandwagon. It means absolutely nothing.
It could also have been accidental handling - so of course they'll scream for that.

Usually I'll recommend getting away from the goal pretty quickly if you can - but you don't want to run upfield if opponents are still in the PA in case something poor happens.
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Why is varying your position unnecessary with NAR's? The reason you vary it is so that players aren't overly aware of where you are.

In regards to the goal/no-goal decision. It's simple. You do not stand on the goal line for the taking of the corner. As the ball comes in you can adjust inwards.

Also, what is more likely to happen, a close goal decision or the ball cleared? In 4 years I've not had a single close goal decision from a corner.
 
I said it's likely to be unnecessary without NAR's. And that's only because it's usually higher level players who think to look where the referee is and see what they can get away with - ie unlikely to have those players at a level without NAR's. Given it's all about playing the odds, I think the chances of that coming up are so slim that it doesn't really affect my positioning decision.

As for your comment about the 'goal/no goal decision' - well, why not stand on the goal line? give me a reason, don't just make a statement and expect it to be accepted like 'the sky is blue'. Sure, you can adjust inwards as the ball comes - but unless you manage to get right onto the goal line, you're out of position for those decisions. And sometimes, even being a few metres out of position can make all the difference.

As I already said, while the more likely event is the ball being cleared, it's far less likely that in doing so, you'll be out of position for a significant decision. I've had far more close goal decisions - or ball swerve out/in - or even fouls that I could only see from next to the goal - from a corner over 15 odd years of refereeing than I have had counters where I felt unable to make a decision on something that happened. It's not just 'playing the numbers' - it's about considering what the significance of the comparitive numbers is.
 
If your looking for a position vary it if it's coming in rb stand that side and as its coming in move around to middle or lb side of the d so your covering the whole of the box if the ball is coming in lb side of the d stand on rb or even to change your position come in to roughly where you stand when a penalty kick is being taken but stand with a 90 degree angle
 
Well, I think I know what you said.....all that conventional positioning advice kind of goes out the window when you don't have a NAR. Well, not necessarily, but you're putting a lot of trust in your CAR (more than I'd want to). And without even a CAR? Completely goes out the window.

Heck, even the diagonal (or whatever the 2016 variant is) becomes utterly pointless when you don't have any AR's at all, yet so many assessor's still insist upon it :p

But as an assessor, I'd only offer what I'm saying here as something to consider.
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
Given it's all about playing the odds.
Click to expand...
THIS.

The varying your position argument is usually used by assessors who have nothing to offer on what actually happened in the game and have to resort to producing dire warnings about what you might have missed. In the OP, you may have missed something but who's to say that if you had adopted another starting position (and the fact that it's a starting position is key) that you wouldn't have missed something else.
 
Positioning from a corner kick is, unfortunately, one of those grey areas where referees will never agree. Personally, I initially position myself on the far side on the goal line, just inside the box, before moving outwards and towards the edge of the box as the corner is taken. The reason for this is two fold. Initially, it allows me to see as much as possible, from ball in/out to the goal line and most potential incidents within the box and it also ensures that the players will never know exactly where I am because I'm always on the move. You are never going to see everything, it's about finding a position that allows you to see as much as possible.

I don't personally agree with the suggestion that you can be caught too far behind play when too close in. I'm no sprinter, but I know that I am more than quick enough to catch up with the play should I need to, so it isn't a consideration in terms of positioning.

The optimal position for corners that is suggested by assessors can only work with NAR's. I honestly don't think I've ever had a CAR who gets in a position to call ball in/out or goal/no goal from a corner, not to mention that I'd be dubious in allowing the CAR to make a goal/no goal decision. The optimal position cuts off so many important things that, as a lone referee, you need to see. I don't get the obsession with corner positioning, find a position that works for you and stick with it.

Going back to the OP, @GraemeS, you were absolutely right not to give the penalty. If you didn't see it, you can't give it; as @CapnBloodbeard says, anything could have happened and as referees, we're certainly not in the market of guessing.
 
I like to be between the goalkeeper and the attacking player that inevitably is trying to stand on his toes - you can really feel the hearbeat of the game from there. In reality, first corner of the game it will be on the edge of the D, but I then adapt through the game as you get an understanding of the player(s) taking the kicks (same as goalkicks, you get a feel as to the capability of the kick-taker, and can position for a view of the drop-zone appropriately - playing those averages). That might mean being near-side to the corner kick behind the line, it might be the far side away from the corner deeper in to the penalty area because I want to keep an eye on pushing / shirt pulling.
 
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