That penalty decision by the referee.. oh my god
Ross County vs Celtic
- Thread starter EnglishReferee
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Mooseybaby
Retired big bad baldy in all black!
Wasn't even good acting. Surely the assistant could have helped the referee?
What about Scott Brown's red card challenge? Certainly wasn't clever, probably lost his head after the penalty. Why o why do referees at professional level insist on showing cards whilst surrounded by players?
What about Scott Brown's red card challenge? Certainly wasn't clever, probably lost his head after the penalty. Why o why do referees at professional level insist on showing cards whilst surrounded by players?
Twas a big mistake, maybe if this VAR comes in soon this could be reversed in the future?? Its one of those that his eyes have conned him with what actually happened. I think the attacker will be getting a retrospective ban as this is allowed in Scotland! That Brown is just a thug!! A walking card!!
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I think you're giving the attacker far far too much credit there, clear dive
I agree - can't defend the referee but the player should be the real focus of criticism.
Haven't seen a zoomed-out view, but I would think the referee and assistant would've been side-on to the players, and he's gone with what he thinks he's seen. The 4th official however should've had the perfect angle to see the gap between the players and lack of contact.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
This is all about credibility. If the ref is awarding that, confidently, albeit, wrongly, from a few yards away and with a reasonable view/angle on it, then, the 4th is going to find it tricky to say, well, despite you Mr ref being 5 yards away and looking right at it and being convinced its a pen, I, from 40 yards away am 100% sure, no ifs' buts not maybes, that you have this wrong. We will never know if the AR has communicated to the ref, whether that be to shout "penalty" or, "dive", if the ref awards that pk and the AR shouts "dive" the ref reserves the final say to go "thanks for your input but am sticking to my decision". Same with 4th, he could indeed have been communicating "that looks like a dive", however, to overrule that, you would need to be hearing "certain dive not a penalty", am sure the 4th might have had an opinion on it, however, it would need to be a cast iron fact for him to state so.
Exactly - barring disastrous simultaneousness injury to both the ref and the relevant AR, the 4th should never be the most credible official in a PA incident. Plus there's a fairly good chance of him being distracted by some other admin duty at the same time as well, so we can't expect the ref to rely on him for help in this incident.
I'm maybe being a bit harsh on the 4th by suggesting he should've intervened, because the referee did make his decision very quickly. I do concede I'd be less willing to try to reverse one if my referee had already awarded it!
In broad terms though, it's entirely within their remit to intervene, and there are plenty of examples of 4th's being the ones who call for a penalty to be awarded. They often have a unique angle, particularly for incidents in the penalty area to their right hand side.
In broad terms though, it's entirely within their remit to intervene, and there are plenty of examples of 4th's being the ones who call for a penalty to be awarded. They often have a unique angle, particularly for incidents in the penalty area to their right hand side.
Plenty of examples of a 4th official giving a penalty that the referee and ARs haven't given? Really? Can you point me to one, as I don't remember ever seeing it.
It's only within their remit if the referee makes it within their remit, and I'm never in a million years asking a 4th official to get involved in on field decisions, with the exception of violent conduct I haven't seen, or mass confrontations. If I'm the referee and have given that penalty from 5ft away, that's because I think it's a penalty. If my 4th official then calls me over to tell me it isn't a penalty as I then need to change my decision based on the opinion of a guy 40 yards away, or stick with my decision despite the fact everyone knows the 4th official told me I was wrong. I'd be kicking the 4th official round the changing rooms after the game for totally undermining my credibility!
Difficult to find public examples, given that we rarely discuss decisions publicly and you can't necessarily see from videos what conversations are happening in ear-pieces. Most of the ones I've known about are ones that Premier League officials have talked about when they've presented at RA meetings. This link refers to one at Nottingham Forest a few years ago though: http://www.nottinghampost.com/notti...earce-admits/story-24897226-detail/story.html
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
I can understand that maybe the referee had a side-on view - sometimes a particular angle just change what you see.
As an AR, when you've seen a clear dive, inarguable, 110% certain, and the ref has given the penalty, then you HAVE to get the referee's attention to talk to him. I think it's beyond the 4th here, but the near AR certainly should be. As long as he's certain.
This idea of 'don't do anything that looks like undermining the referee' cannot be the reason for not reaching the correct decision.
And it's easier at this level because you can talk on the mic first without looking like undermining. So I'd love to know what conversation was had!
As an AR, when you've seen a clear dive, inarguable, 110% certain, and the ref has given the penalty, then you HAVE to get the referee's attention to talk to him. I think it's beyond the 4th here, but the near AR certainly should be. As long as he's certain.
This idea of 'don't do anything that looks like undermining the referee' cannot be the reason for not reaching the correct decision.
And it's easier at this level because you can talk on the mic first without looking like undermining. So I'd love to know what conversation was had!
Totally agree with that. At this level you have the benefit of the headset to speak quickly and relatively covertly, and also video replays that can show you ultimately got it right. At lower levels it becomes much harder to do it with credibility.
At his level with mics, I agree. At the level most people on this forum are working at, I'm not sure that getting involved is appropriate.
The general instruction I tend to be given when working as an AR is that if the ref wants your input, he'll be staring at you. If he makes a decision (either by giving a penalty or giving a clear "No Penalty" decision), then the time to object is after the match in the dressing room. If I were to stick my flag up and he has to come and have a chat with me, that's directly contradicting his pre-match instructions.
We can discuss if that's an appropriate instruction to be giving in the first place - but having agreed to that pre-match, I don't know if I should be getting myself involved if he makes a quick decision.