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Sheffield United v BHA

I discussed this in another thread but not having promotion / relegation for referees at top level is a serious problem. If all you have to do is pass a fitness test and give mediocre performances to stay in SG1, then there are no surprises there is no quality. You create quality by having a healthy ongoing coemption amongst peers to keep what they have.
 
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I discussed this in another thread but not having promotion / relegation for referees at top level is a serious problem. If all you have to do is pass a fitness test and give mediocre performances to stay in SG1, then there are no surprises there is no quality. You create quality by having a healthy ongoing coemption amongst peers to keep what they have.
Agree somewhat.
But you don't know what the benchmarks are. The performance maybe mediocre in your eyes but you don't know what KMIs get backed, get development, or what the overall criteria are.
If a referee misses a red card, and their assistant referee or video assistant referee provides the information that results in the correct decision then as a team the KMI was right..
You aren't getting a major development, you might get a minor, but if you arrive at the correct decision, by whatever means, why should you/would you be demoted.
It's long accepted that referees make wrong decisions, if it wasn't then we wouldn't have VAR in the first place
 
How many reds have we had downgraded to yellow? Either way it's not good. I have no doubt VAR is impacting the original refereeing decisions. If we don't accept that then either VAR is making bad decisions or referees in PL are low standard to start with. Maybe all of the above.

I can only think of one and that was the opening day of the season with Moss showing a Southampton player a red card but VAR sent him to the monitor and downgrade it to a yellow.

I must add I saw the incidents last night in the West Brom game and in fairness to Atkinson I don't think he had the perfect view as he was behind the offending player making a challenge but surely the AR should of helped him out. As for the 2nd potential red, whilst the force was less, I actually think it was more risk of a leg breaker, I hate seeing tackles that have studs above the ankle in a downward motion, not sure how that can't be a red card.
 
My understanding is that if a referee goes yellow and it is upgraded to red via VAR review they still get an incorrect KMI awarded against them, and the same would happen if it was vice versa and red downgraded to yellow. So there really is no incentive for the referee to "bottle" the decision knowing that VAR will bail them out. It will in terms of getting to the correct decision, but they will still be getting a maximum mark of 7.9.
 
My understanding is that if a referee goes yellow and it is upgraded to red via VAR review they still get an incorrect KMI awarded against them, and the same would happen if it was vice versa and red downgraded to yellow. So there really is no incentive for the referee to "bottle" the decision knowing that VAR will bail them out. It will in terms of getting to the correct decision, but they will still be getting a maximum mark of 7.9.
Out of interest, what would happen if a referee produces a YC but the VAR recommends a RC but he sticks with his decision and there is genuine split between the pundits and fans alike, he can't be marked down for that can he?

I don't believe referees are reffing knowing VAR could bail them out, they are being told not to do that. I think its the flaw from the PGMOL of having a higher tolerance on given red cards out so we can keep 11v11 and not ruining the spectacle. Unfortunately with VAR that is getting exposed a little bit but I think the PGMOL should be concerned we had 10 pitchside reviews all ready to upgrade a yellow card to a red and vice versa.
 
My understanding is that if a referee goes yellow and it is upgraded to red via VAR review they still get an incorrect KMI awarded against them, and the same would happen if it was vice versa and red downgraded to yellow. So there really is no incentive for the referee to "bottle" the decision knowing that VAR will bail them out. It will in terms of getting to the correct decision, but they will still be getting a maximum mark of 7.9.
I thought you'd said in the past that no referee would show a red to a player and have to call them back on the pitch when they could show yellow and then upgrade through VAR?

I do agree that referees should go red where required straight away and it's correct their marks are affected if they get it wrong. But the fact 10 red cards have been missed in PL so far this season suggests some referees are either subconsciously refereeing differently/more leniently because of VAR or they've never been that good at recognising SFP/VC and it's only now VAR's been introduced that they're being corrected at the time - or maybe a bit of both!
 
Out of interest, what would happen if a referee produces a YC but the VAR recommends a RC but he sticks with his decision and there is genuine split between the pundits and fans alike, he can't be marked down for that can he?

I don't believe referees are reffing knowing VAR could bail them out, they are being told not to do that. I think its the flaw from the PGMOL of having a higher tolerance on given red cards out so we can keep 11v11 and not ruining the spectacle. Unfortunately with VAR that is getting exposed a little bit but I think the PGMOL should be concerned we had 10 pitchside reviews all ready to upgrade a yellow card to a red and vice versa.
I'm not sure about PL but I think as a general guide in Europe:

VAR wrongly advises on-field review when not a clear and obvious error - VAR marked down whatever referee does.
If referee incorrectly changes decision after reviewing evidence - referee marked down.
If VAR recommendation for review is correct but referee incorrectly sticks with initial decision then referee effectively marked down twice - once for the initial error and then again for not correcting it when given the chance.
 
Out of interest, what would happen if a referee produces a YC but the VAR recommends a RC but he sticks with his decision and there is genuine split between the pundits and fans alike, he can't be marked down for that can he?
Last time I checked pundits and fans aren't the ones who mark referees ;)
 
Here are some VAR stats from ESPN on EPL so far:

Total overturns: 63
Rejected overturns: 2

Leading to goals: 18
Leading to disallowed goals: 20
Penalties awarded: 17 (4 missed)
Pens for handball: 7
Penalties overturned: 9
Penalties retakes (GK encroach): 3
Goals ruled out for offside: 16
Goals awarded after incorrect offside: 2
Goals ruled out for handball: 2
Goals allowed after wrong handball: 0
Goals ruled out for a foul: 2
Red cards: 10
Overturned red cards: 1
Mistaken identity: 1

Even if we take out offsides, that's a lot of KMI's missed. We keep saying 10 red cards missed. It's actually 10 missed that were clearly and obviously red. There would be other ones that VAR didn't intervene because they were not clear and obvious. I don't know if referees are marked down for non-clear ones. I would love to know the average assessment mark for EPL referees this season and how that compares to the other top 5 leagues in Europe.
 
I disagree. Referees are giving yellow cards because they can re-referee the game. It's rubbish.

I've watched more football this week than in the last 10 weeks and VAR is sh*te. Every goal is rubbish. The offside decisions are rubbish. The missing handballs are rubbish. The re-refereeing cards are rubbish. It's a steaming t**d. It's benefiting the news cycle. It's rubbish for referees and football.

Next time, could you please let us know your true feelings related to the current state of refereeing and VAR? Thanks in advance. 😂😁

(For what it’s worth, I don’t disagree with you.)
 
Yes, they had great views but they came to the incorrect outcome in law. I don't think anyone is arguing they were red card challenges, so for me this is where VAR is working well.
I suppose the (impossible to answer) question is whether the referees in question would have gone red without VAR.

In much the same way that ARs are now not flagging tight offsides they might have done before VAR.

Whether you agree with VAR or not, pretty unarguable that the game HAS been changed - for better or worse is up for debate and pretty sure we know where most of us stand on that by now!
 
I suppose the (impossible to answer) question is whether the referees in question would have gone red without VAR.

In much the same way that ARs are now not flagging tight offsides they might have done before VAR.
As has been mentioned, if the referee gives a yellow and changes the decision to red following VAR intervention then they will be marked down for getting a KMD incorrect, so it doesn't make sense for them to screw themselves over like that by cautioning if they thought it was a sending off.

Different with ARs and offsides, that's a necessary procedural change because of the potential impact of stopping a team from attacking for an offside decision which may prove to be incorrect.
 
As has been mentioned, if the referee gives a yellow and changes the decision to red following VAR intervention then they will be marked down for getting a KMD incorrect, so it doesn't make sense for them to screw themselves over like that by cautioning if they thought it was a sending off.

Different with ARs and offsides, that's a necessary procedural change because of the potential impact of stopping a team from attacking for an offside decision which may prove to be incorrect.
I don't think the KMI counts for much. Those refs all act as one. If one of them does something, it's cos they're all doing it
 
As has been mentioned, if the referee gives a yellow and changes the decision to red following VAR intervention then they will be marked down for getting a KMD incorrect, so it doesn't make sense for them to screw themselves over like that by cautioning if they thought it was a sending off.

Different with ARs and offsides, that's a necessary procedural change because of the potential impact of stopping a team from attacking for an offside decision which may prove to be incorrect.
You're right about the procedure for offside flag in terms of delayed flags but the assistant should still always make a decision - the communication of offside is just sometimes a bit later.

I know some think assistants are now a bit less likely to (eventually) raise the flag for a tight offside than they once were because of VAR, in the way some are saying about referees being influenced by VAR when going yellow. As said though it's impossible to know what the decision would have bene without VAR and I suppose we are also influenced in our own perceptions. There were plenty of red cards and so on missed in the pre-VAR world so it's probably often just a poor initial decision and examples of what VAR was introduced to correct.

It would be interesting to know how number of red card (or even offside decisions) now differed from few seasons before VAR - obviously there will always be some variations from season to season but would be interesting to see if it's significantly changed or we just perceive it has.
 
You're right about the procedure for offside flag in terms of delayed flags but the assistant should still always make a decision - the communication of offside is just sometimes a bit later.

I know some think assistants are now a bit less likely to (eventually) raise the flag for a tight offside than they once were because of VAR, in the way some are saying about referees being influenced by VAR when going yellow. As said though it's impossible to know what the decision would have bene without VAR and I suppose we are also influenced in our own perceptions. There were plenty of red cards and so on missed in the pre-VAR world so it's probably often just a poor initial decision and examples of what VAR was introduced to correct.

It would be interesting to know how number of red card (or even offside decisions) now differed from few seasons before VAR - obviously there will always be some variations from season to season but would be interesting to see if it's significantly changed or we just perceive it has.
Yes that would be interesting. I think someone posted earlier in the season that penalties HAD increased significantly since VAR, although I suspect those stats are muddied by the changes to the handball law.
 
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