A&H

Tottenham Hotspur vs Man City

DG stated on RefWatch, that the delay stemmed from the need for the VAR to review all the replays to find the best one! The explanation was based on there only being one VAR and it takes time to watch replays in sequence. My kids are more technology savvy it seems
 
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DG stated on RefWatch, that the delay stemmed from the need for the VAR to review all the replays to find the best one! The explanation was based on there only being one VAR and it takes time to watch replays in sequence. My kids are more technology savvy it seems
Really good twitter thread on this, with an important point regarding the staffing involved that explains why it took so long (I'd strongly recommend following this guy if you have twitter BTW):
For anyone who doesn't read all the way through the thread, apparently they are not using the world cup VAR model. The PL have a video referee and only one video assistant, plus one video operator to help. The assistant's job is to keep watching the live game while a check/review is underway in case anything else reviewable occurs. This means that the VAR has to first check for a possible penalty, then check all 4 possible forward passes to make sure there isn't a disqualifying offside. This apparently gets you to around 1m55s in this case. He then informs the referee, who then has to wait for the ball to be somewhere neutral, as if he decides to stop play, look at the monitor and then not accept the VAR's recommendation, he doesn't want to have interrupted a possible goalscoring opportunity to do so. This is what gets you to 2m10s.

Conversely in the world cup, they had a dedicated offside assistant as well as all the above staff (plus I think another assistant for something?), meaning that the offside checks can go on at the same time as the possible foul checks. I think in this situation, that probably would have roughly cut the review time in half and helped speed it up a lot.

I'm not going to mention my theory that the PL want VAR to fail, but you'd feel like they could have staffed it better if they wanted to help make it more efficient.....
 
I think the Premier League needs to invest more in the staffing/resources so that angles can be found quicker. Mark Clattenburg mentioned how many people were working for ITV when he worked for them at the World Cup. You need experienced TV people there who can feed the best angles in efficiently like they do on Sky, etc.

If a decision was ready to be made I think there's a strong argument it would have been appropriate to stop the game and give the penalty. If you're using the monitor then it makes sense to wait until the ball's in a neutral area in case the referee disagrees but they're generally not for penalties in the Premier League so once Kevin Friend said it was a penalty Mike Dean was almost certainly going to give a penalty.
 
That wasn't my first thought, and it wasn't what Dermot Gallagher said when they asked him about it in the post-match review. I thought (and so did he) that it was just down to the guidelines in the VAR protocol and which say:

Yes, but that is a bit pointless and needless when they don't use reviews for penalties. If the VAR is saying "Mike you need to give a penalty" it doesn't matter if that is said when the ball is about to be kicked into the Man City goal, you can do it at any time surely?
 
SkySports pole suggesting 93% of respondents want to see an end to VAR
Certainly reflects the ratio of people I talk to (at least after I've finished giving them a talking to ;)), but probably a little misleading otherwise
 
It's been my opinion for some time that Mr Riley will be pensioned off at the end of the season. The implementation of VAR in the PL has been disastrous, and bringing in a younger man to make the obvious changes may well be the PR shot in the arm that the PGMOL need. Maybe they'll go for Webb, although when he spoke at the Rotherham RA meeting in May, he seemed understand happy with the life he has in America.
 
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Really good twitter thread on this, with an important point regarding the staffing involved that explains why it took so long (I'd strongly recommend following this guy if you have twitter BTW):
For anyone who doesn't read all the way through the thread, apparently they are not using the world cup VAR model. The PL have a video referee and only one video assistant, plus one video operator to help. The assistant's job is to keep watching the live game while a check/review is underway in case anything else reviewable occurs. This means that the VAR has to first check for a possible penalty, then check all 4 possible forward passes to make sure there isn't a disqualifying offside. This apparently gets you to around 1m55s in this case. He then informs the referee, who then has to wait for the ball to be somewhere neutral, as if he decides to stop play, look at the monitor and then not accept the VAR's recommendation, he doesn't want to have interrupted a possible goalscoring opportunity to do so. This is what gets you to 2m10s.

Conversely in the world cup, they had a dedicated offside assistant as well as all the above staff (plus I think another assistant for something?), meaning that the offside checks can go on at the same time as the possible foul checks. I think in this situation, that probably would have roughly cut the review time in half and helped speed it up a lot.

I'm not going to mention my theory that the PL want VAR to fail, but you'd feel like they could have staffed it better if they wanted to help make it more efficient.....
It was not flawless. It was what PGMOL Says it was supposed to be after the fact. It would be flawless if everyone knows what the process should be and then it adheres to that process. The very fact that so many stakeholders are questioning a process makes the process flawed.

A 'check' is reasonably short. The VAR does not decide to 'review' after checking, the referee does even if has to be reviewed by VAR. The check can happen while play is in progress but the review happens after play is stopped and should take longer. In this case the check (play was in progress) took 115 seconds, the review took less that 10 seconds. It looks like VAR is playing judge and jury, the referee is the executioner.
 
YouGov did a poll which suggests only a small percentage want it scrapped but the vast majority want improvement and aren't happy with how it is currently being used - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51375410
Just to reiterate my genuine viewpoint, yes I'd like to see VAR completely scrapped, but only to pave the way for VARv2 (involving tearing up the 64 pages {or whatever} of bog roll and starting over with incremental change). Not feeling confident that my VARv2 idea will get any traction tho
 
This sense of frustration is added to when a 'clear and obvious' act - Lloris moving before pen kick - is NOT picked up by VAR.

It's not that VAR missed it, but that VAR isn't looking at it. PL decided not to have VAR look at GK movement. So unless they changed that decision along the way, that's a design implementation issue. (And was probably made because the 1 mm calls in the WWC were not not well received.)
 
Yes, but that is a bit pointless and needless when they don't use reviews for penalties. If the VAR is saying "Mike you need to give a penalty" it doesn't matter if that is said when the ball is about to be kicked into the Man City goal, you can do it at any time surely?
Well yes, I was going to make the same point but didn't get around to it. Part of the problem with this is the way the EPL is implementing the protocol. As I said over in another thread, I think they're wilfully mis-applying the protocol and this is one of the scenarios where it comes back to bite them.
 
Is it an age thing, or is it a pressure from the Premier League thing?

I don't think it's an age thing. But there will be a rebrand of all things VAR following it's bump first year, and I think the PGMOL will want to be seen to modernise
 
Well yes, I was going to make the same point but didn't get around to it. Part of the problem with this is the way the EPL is implementing the protocol. As I said over in another thread, I think they're wilfully mis-applying the protocol and this is one of the scenarios where it comes back to bite them.
I agree that the EPL wilfully adapted the protocol. However, not to sabotage it. That just wouldn't make any sense. Rather, they thought they could do a better job at things. Which they haven't; they've made it marginally worse
 
I agree that the EPL wilfully adapted the protocol. However, not to sabotage it. That just wouldn't make any sense. Rather, they thought they could do a better job at things. Which they haven't; they've made it marginally worse

I think it depends what the objective of VAR is. The Premier League's main objective (or certainly one of them) seemed to be to avoid the lengthy delays we've seen in other countries. I saw some average timings posted by a journalist recently and the PL was quicker than other leagues using VAR, so if that's the aim I guess they might feel they've succeeded.

I actually think VAR has improvedi n the PL over the past few months. Clear penalties have been given in games such as Spurs V Man City, Spurs V Chelsea and Man City V Man Utd - high-profile games that would have attracted a lot of publicity if they'd been missed.

There are still issues of course but I think of communication was improved, handball by attacking players was changed a bit and offside were done in a different way (all of which might be tweaked by IFAB later this month for next season) then there'd be something to move forward with.
 
I watched it all again earlier and my opinion has changed after watching it live.

Sterling foul was a YC. Good call.
Lloris did not have one foot on the line. This was missed and C&O.
The save should have reset the penalty with YC to Lloris.
(On the rebound, I am happy with GK, no foul, no dive. Sterling anticipates contact and gets his knees down early but that doesn’t necessarily make it simulation and I am happy with no YC. If the ball was in play.)

So, my updated conclusion: smart video refereeing would have been to call the GK encroachment.

Extra point: for all those considering a 30cm or daylight margin for offside, please note that this encroachment snafu only happened because the guidance on GK encroachment was changed from being absolute black/white.

(And yes, I still think VAR is a shower. It did nothing for that massive game other than undermine the referee.)
At least someone did Sterling the courtesy of looking at the live action rather than a misleading still....

Does being anti-Sterling not count as fan forum stuff?
 
It's not that VAR missed it, but that VAR isn't looking at it. PL decided not to have VAR look at GK movement. So unless they changed that decision along the way, that's a design implementation issue. (And was probably made because the 1 mm calls in the WWC were not not well received.)

Think you miss the point - that's just semantics - to the football fan it doesn't matter WHY VAR didn't intervene, just that they didn't, despite doing so, after over 2 minutes, to stop the game and award the penalty, which, however you think about WAS debateable - lloris DID move off his line before kick was taken - no debate.

Can you not see that this paradox is what is driving fans mad!
 
This has happened a few times where someone has given a baffling explanation, I suspect it is an FA media spokesperson rather than PGMOL.

But the continued silence from PGMOL towers doesn't help. They need to be explaining VAR decisions every week like they do in the USA, even if that means saying the wrong outcome was reached.

Cheers Rusty - that DOES make sense. If PGMOL then obviously not as per LOTG, and if PL - could be seen as favouring one club over another.
 
Think you miss the point - that's just semantics - to the football fan it doesn't matter WHY VAR didn't intervene, just that they didn't, despite doing so, after over 2 minutes, to stop the game and award the penalty, which, however you think about WAS debateable - lloris DID move off his line before kick was taken - no debate.

Can you not see that this paradox is what is driving fans mad!

You're mis-taking me completely. I'm not a fan of VAR at all--the expectations of consistency haven't been met at all, and the vision that it would reduce controversy have been shown to be a farce. My point was where the problem lies: PL made a conscious choice to disregard how VAR is being used everywhere else and not look at GK movement. So everyone who saw all those calls in the WC is perplexed when it isn't called in PL games--either by the AR or VAR.
 
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