A&H

Unintentional violent conduct...

The arm comes up and slightly towards the face, to me that looks potentially intentional.

I'm not sure if he WAS trying to move his arm out the way or whatever, but my original thought was yellow (USB? - non-intentional collision but unsporting to bring your arm up so close to a player), but having watched the clip again a few times I think there's an argument for red for the arm up AND towards the face.

Either would suit me for a single look at grassroots though.
 
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bloovee said:
Let's face it, English referees aren't likely to be going to the World Cup, again.
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You can't just make stuff up to 'prove' your point.

Rightly or wrongly Oliver, Taylor and Kavanagh are very highly though of by UEFA - CK was one of the selected non-Elite group referees to attend the UEFA Winter Seminar - so it seems likely that at least one of them will be at the Euros. Given Kuipers is likely to retire from the FIFA list after the Euros and Rocchi already has that leaves two slots available (assuming UEFA have ten officials at WC22 again). Of those Brych will be 47 by the time the tournament begins, Cakir will turn 46 during it, Lohez will be 45, Mazic will be 45 and Skomina (currently suffering a long term injury) will be 46. It seems incredibly unlikely to me that all eight of those will be at WC22 and so it seems unlikely that there'd be no English representation - before 2018, the last WC refereeing cohort without English representation was in 1994.

And as for the 'again' part of your post, the lack of English representation at WC18 was nothing to do with anything other that Clattenburg's move abroad. FIFA assemble a large pool (training/seminars/tests etc) of potential WC referees 3 years before the tournament and whittle it down - no one is added, simply removed. Clattenburg was in that pool and nailed on to go given his major appointments under UEFA in 2016. Martin Atkinson was also in the pool but deemed not good enough - remember that 2/3 of the officials selected three years out miss the cut. When Clattenburg decided to leave the UK and thus the pool in early 2017, there was never going to be an English official added in and so there wouldn't be one at the tournament.

Regardless of all of our opinions of PGMOL/PL and Mike Dean yesterday, Oliver and (in particular) Taylor are extremely highly thought of by UEFA and I'd put money on at least one of them attending the 2022 World Cup. Incidentally, I believe Stuart Attwell is also highly likely to attend both Euro21 and WC22 as a VAR - he's well thought of in that role.
 
Sad to see so many Refs agreeing with this dismissal. It just makes us all the subject of comedy

A trivial altercation, Mitro acting the idiot (as usual), cheating then defending his opponent from one moment to the next, all subject to slow motion forensics and endless media pillory

Brilliant
 
one said:
Do you think contact here was deliberate?

Or are PGMOL directing against what's in the lotg? The directions for contact with head applies only when it is deliberate. Yes I agree with responsibility comment but in this case I am not deeming it deliberate and I don't S3 how anyone can. The only way this can be a send off is if you deem it brutal or UEF (the general definition of VC) and under that definition I disagree with a VAR review recommendation.

This is in the orange zone. I would accept either card from the referee (prefer yellow) but VAR needs to keep quiet on it as it would not be a C&O error.
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My sense has been that various plays had directed aggressive use of red for elbows/arms/hands to the face. How those match the language of the law I couldn’t tell you.

I don’t think this was innocent. I think he was using the elbow to creat space. So yes, I think he was intentionally swinging the elbow towards an opponent, but I don’t think the contact with the face was intended. So which “intent” controls? I think it is likely PGMOL wants this as red. Whether they would consider it clear error that VAR should intervene, I have no clue. I’ve found it hard to discern what PGMOL really wants from VARs.
 
deusex said:
Don't see the problem with red myself.
It's his responsibility to not fling an elbow in a space where an opponent's face is likely to be.
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Yes, but does he do that with excessive force or brutality, or was it a deliberate strike to the opponents face? OR did he act with disregard to the consequence for his opponent?

For me it appears accidental and therefore falls into the reckless category ie acting with disregard.

Just not considering the opponents face might be there does not automatically mean its a red card. This isn't an unusual action to make in this situation.
 
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I can't make my mind up to be honest. Initially I was very much it wasn't a red card, but the way he immediately holds his hands up and looks towards the referee makes me think there may well have been some intent in it. One of those that only the player will know if he meant it, but with hindsight I don't think it is as bad a decision as some have made out, like Ian Wright calling it the worst decision ever.
 
RustyRef said:
I can't make my mind up to be honest. Initially I was very much it wasn't a red card, but the way he immediately holds his hands up and looks towards the referee makes me think there may well have been some intent in it. One of those that only the player will know if he meant it, but with hindsight I don't think it is as bad a decision as some have made out, like Ian Wright calling it the worst decision ever.
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Why wouldn't you apologetically hold you hands up if you caught some one in the face. I know it is normally the universal message of 'I didn't mean it ref' but I think it's genuine on this occasion.
I have seen it so many times and I can't see a red card.
 
In my opinion he holds his hands up cause Mitrovic goes does as if he's been shot and it’s probably a “dont know why hes went down like that” gesture

this can only be red if hes meant it or excessive force. Neither for me
 
deusex said:
Don't see the problem with red myself.
It's his responsibility to not fling an elbow in a space where an opponent's face is likely to be.
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I don't see a problem with red either if given by the referee in the first place it would have been justifyable. My problem is with the VAR intervention no matter what that initial decision was by the referee.
 
JamesL said:
Why wouldn't you apologetically hold you hands up if you caught some one in the face. I know it is normally the universal message of 'I didn't mean it ref' but I think it's genuine on this occasion.
I have seen it so many times and I can't see a red card.
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I'm not necessarily saying I think it is a red, but I do question why his arms where that high.

One things I am certain on though is it wasn't anywhere close to being a clear and obvious error by Mike Dean on the original decision, so VAR involvement was just plain wrong.
 
one said:
Surly when you car collision neither parties meant for it to happen.
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Totally. But driving is a necessity for both parties involved. Throwing your elbow into somebody's face during a game of football when neither of you is in the process of challenging for the ball is avoidable.
 
Kes said:
Me too. Have you ever stood on the edge of a penalty area waiting for a free kick to happen and "accidentally" jabbed your elbow into somebody's face?

Me neither...
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I have went to move my arms before and hit something by accident however.

avoidable ≠ intentional
 
Kes said:
Totally. But driving is a necessity for both parties involved. Throwing your elbow into somebody's face during a game of football when neither of you is in the process of challenging for the ball is avoidable.
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They are both challenging for space though aren't they? And that is a common and accepted part of football. As I said before, I don't disagree it is his responsibility to ensure this sort of contact doesn't happen when challenging for space (or for the ball) but to say that he did it deliberately is stretching it.
 
Kes said:
That's not what happened though.
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Course it is. He has gone to lift his arm over the attempted grapple of Mitrovic. And has clocked him in the face by accident.
It's just like when you knock a glass over, you know it's there, you move your arm with the intention of not hitting the glass but you clock it anyway and knock it over.
You see this action all the time at corners as attackers are trying to manoeuvre and position their body 1) away from being grabbed and grappled and 2) to change the direction of the run.
Even Mitrovich, after his histrionics, is saying it was an accident and was surprised it resulted in a red card. I think in my mind he thought it would be a good chance to waste time. I think once he realised actually it was resulting in a send off he was regretful. At least he appeared to be.
This is pure guesswork as to intent, or deliberateness, but its as good as your suggestion that he meant to clock him in the face.
 
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