VAR...dortmund v bayern
- Thread starter es1
- Start date
yep, hand ball for me too, definitely puts his arm out to block the shot...
Must be nailed on then
I was watching it live and was amazed it didn't go to VAR, especially for Germany where lots of handballs are given that wouldn't be in England. I suspect human error as play was restarted almost immediately leaving no time for a proper VAR check.
In fairness, there were no appeals from Dortmund players so my guess is that no one even suspected a problem real time.
In fairness, there were no appeals from Dortmund players so my guess is that no one even suspected a problem real time.
Which seems a pretty big issue in the whole VAR process and application
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Pk for me, understandable ref would miss it or be unsure but its textbook for the handballs we were watching at the womens world cup and going, no way...but they were.
Happens quickly and at close range so players prob not sure either, is it worth the mindset that, without 20,000 fans screaming for it behind the goal, we could easily assume nothing is amiss, a huge roar at least makes us aware something needs consideration?
I know i have maybe been close with something on the box, watched the tackle carefully, thought about it, played it back in my head, but no reaction from attacker, no mass appeal, its out for a corner and nothing about whats going on says penalty, so, corner it is.
Disclaimer that does not mean no appeal means no pk, am talking isolated example where you do feel, wait, am only person thinking this, have i got it right?
the clips what i call a John Terry penalty, making himself bigger by any means to block the ball.
Happens quickly and at close range so players prob not sure either, is it worth the mindset that, without 20,000 fans screaming for it behind the goal, we could easily assume nothing is amiss, a huge roar at least makes us aware something needs consideration?
I know i have maybe been close with something on the box, watched the tackle carefully, thought about it, played it back in my head, but no reaction from attacker, no mass appeal, its out for a corner and nothing about whats going on says penalty, so, corner it is.
Disclaimer that does not mean no appeal means no pk, am talking isolated example where you do feel, wait, am only person thinking this, have i got it right?
the clips what i call a John Terry penalty, making himself bigger by any means to block the ball.
Agree, this has always been an innate issue with the choice of a system where checks have to be initiated by an external VAR, combined with football's insistence that a restart means any decisions before that point are locked in stone. For the VAR to hold up play, he has to have time to at least watch one replay to see if there's something that requires further investigation and it's always been plausible that the ball could go out and back into play in that time.
Either a referee-initiated check system (as per rugby) or a captain/managers challenge (as per cricket, tennis, NFL.....) system would get round this issue and both would be better systems IMO.
A flawed system that gets involved when it doesn't need to (microscopic offsides) and doesn't get involved when it plainly should (above).
Justifying this bullcrap is like listening to a Dominic Cummings press conference!!!
Justifying this bullcrap is like listening to a Dominic Cummings press conference!!!
Oh yeah, definitely f'ed that one up. I was once absolutely sure a tackle was a pk and the defender must have gone through the back of the attacker to get to the ball. Point to the spot, turns out in the only one on the pitch, nay the entire park, that thinks that was a pk. Not too proud of myself but turned it into a corner kick and all was well. That convinced me that angles can be extremely deceiving.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
perfectly fine and understandable, and credit you changed it
With experience, it taught me just to hold off ( i never gave mine), the mind does play tricks on us and sometimes we do actually believe what we think we have seen...
Yeah, that's what I'm doing now. Sometimes gives me a bit of grief: 'Why'd you wait so long?' in reality this is often no more than a second but that's an eternity in football. A well timed 'just making sure I'm not making a massive mistake' often helps in dealing with those comments. And if they're protesting I took so long, they're already past protesting the foul or if it was one
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
i was AR in a televised game where ref did as you, had already decided defender could not possibly touch the ball, tackle came in, gave pen.
I got him over ( days before coms), said, its not a pen, give a drop ball.
He said, no, its a pen
I said, no, fcking drop ball.
He knew i was deadly serious, and went with me......phew
That's lucky and some of the occasions where swearing is absolutely useful. What we're the players' reactions?
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
It was 2001, very very rare to see AR do this, and being honest, i was thinking twice about doing it.
it made back page of the papers here, me and the ref having our wee chat
Home manager, erm, a passionate man! Ran down touchline to rant, his words..
" we know its not a fcking penalty but its not your place to over rule the referee"
changed days now, accepted team work, comms, fourth official etc.....
home team knew it was not a pen, but like the manager, ref gave it so that should be that
Away defenders clapped in my direction
kinda fortunate home team went on to win 1-0
and yes, heat of moment and all that, having been million per cent it was not a pk, i gave it two go's of telling the ref, and i mean telling
got it right, tv proved that and for what its worth, supervisor, who had not seen replay at that point, was also in agreement that it was not a pk
onthebrink
Well-Known Member
I don't think it would have made any difference here because it seems neither the referee or any of the players had an idea that it was a penalty. The VAR was the most likely person to spot it but obviously any system relies on someone spotting it, either live or on a replay. There's no way of completely overriding that reality.
I don't think it's correct to suggest that the referee or players make no contribution to the review process. If the referee had thought there was a casae for a penalty or a player had appealed to him for it, I'm sure the VAR would have looked more closely at it.
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
VAR procedures explicitly allow the R to initiate a review.
I was all prepared to quote laws telling you that you were wrong, but then found out that you weren't! That surprises me because I genuinely cannot remember an incident where the referee stops play to initiate a review without seeming to get a signal from the VAR first. And it also seems to conflict with the principal that the referee has to make a decision first - in this case, if he's made the decision that it isn't a penalty, it seems like it would be very odd for him to then insist on a check that undermines his decision.
Contrast this with rugby TMO, where the questions often seem to be phrased with a "I think this offence was comitted but I'm not sure/not sure how severe the punishment should be". That's a very different approach to a referee-initiated check than in football, where it therefore has to start with a "can you prove me wrong?" mentality.
Agree completely, but because of the way VAR has been designed, we're discussing this incident because the VAR failed to get the check done in time to recommend a delayed restart and/or the referee didn't spot the possibility he missed something - so this has become a mistake by the officials. If a manager/captain challenge system was in place, the failure to initiate a review would have been the fault of one of the teams, making the referee just a bystander rather than the cause of the problem.
As discussed in my previous post, I accept that the referee could have initiated a review, but find that very inconsistent with the idea that he's expected to first make a firm decision and then immediately doubt himself in order to do this. And the VAR should be constantly checking every possible incident, not just sitting on their hands until the referee starts to panic down the comms system, so the referee's confidence in his decision should (in theory!) be irrelevant to the standard system of ongoing background checks.
On the other hand, players should absolutely not be having an effect on him under the current system. In fact, if they attempt to influence him into carrying out a check, the laws are extremely clear that he should be handing out cautions. Dortmund certainly screwed themselves over slightly by taking the quick corner, but the most they should have done is taken a bit more time over it to make sure the check was givn time to go ahead - any more influencing of the referee should (again, in theory!) be punished.
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
I don't think it's inconsistent at all. "I've got nothing because I didn't see ball hand contact. But I was shielded--double check for me."
And I don't think we know when an R asks about review--goes through the headsets and could be in the background where we don't see/hear.