The Ref Stop

For the older refs...

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Now now, play nicely people!

I'm only 21, but I qualified when I was 14 and have been reffing youth football since then. I wouldn't have a problem as such with somebody younger than me coming to assess, though maybe that's because the age gap is small. A referee is a referee as far as I'm concerned and we can all offer useful advice to each other; maybe it would even be an advantage to be assessed by somebody who's been trained in the same way as me, rather than a retired ref who has been trained 20/30 years ago.

Having said that, I wouldn't want that 19 year old ref to turn up and start listing his achievements. That achieves nothing for me, and has the potential to come across as arrogant, whether intended or not.
 
The Ref Stop
If experience counts for far more than level, does that mean that Brian, who has been refereeing for x number of years (sorry to use you as an example Brian, just trying to illustrate my point). Is a better referee than certain members of the select group who have only been refereeing for 9 or 10 years?
 
i do think there is a divergence between those referees who are keen to progress via promotions and those who don't really care. if you're not that bothered then you're not going to listen to a young assessor anyway.

i think i fall into the middle ground whereby i would probably respect an older assessor's experience but a younger assessor's ability to navigate promotions.
 
Padfoot said:
Absolute tosh I'm afraid.

Everything about referee advancement in this country is heavily weighted towards youth.
Even my own RDO admits that a 30 something ref trying to get to level 4 or above will have a tougher journey than an 18 yr old ref.
Proven time and again in my county, the young candidates get selected to go to St George's Park to work with FIFA officials and the Select group, the older guys are pretty much left to their own devices.
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An older ref will have just as many assessments as a young ref if they choose to apply for promotion. The only difference is younger referees are more actively encouraged to apply. You also have to consider the shortage of assessors so the RDO has to prioritise promotion candidates which does tend to be the younger lot. I disagree that it will be harder though, the message from Neale Barry is if your good enough you'll be promoted.

Padfoot said:
Please don't take the wrong way...but....your experience is 2.5 seasons of football. However you choose to dress that up, it's still 2.5 seasons, nothing more nothing less.

How many 'difficult' games did you have?

I've watched a young referee go from 7 to 4 in my county, and watched their fixtures.....remarkably they seem to have avoided games that would be potentially problematic, not a bad feat over 2 seasons.
Are they going to continue have such 'luck' now they are officiating at a higher level....who knows?
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I accept your opinions but in all honesty with training we get in various academies we can perhaps learn in 2.5 years what an older referee with no interest in further training or development can in 10. I quote such things as assessment marks as these are irrespective of age so I feel show me to have outperformed referees with far more experience. In fact some assessors can in fact be anti-youth.

I would say that I haven't avoided tough games. For example one of my marks in the 80s this year came from a fierce local derby in a senior league in front of a crowd of around 300.

Matthew said:
Now now, play nicely people!

I'm only 21, but I qualified when I was 14 and have been reffing youth football since then. I wouldn't have a problem as such with somebody younger than me coming to assess, though maybe that's because the age gap is small. A referee is a referee as far as I'm concerned and we can all offer useful advice to each other; maybe it would even be an advantage to be assessed by somebody who's been trained in the same way as me, rather than a retired ref who has been trained 20/30 years ago.

Having said that, I wouldn't want that 19 year old ref to turn up and start listing his achievements. That achieves nothing for me, and has the potential to come across as arrogant, whether intended or not.
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I of course wouldn't do this when turning up to a game, I may perhaps quote my level if my credibility were questioned but would go no further.
 
Pierluigi said:
An older ref will have just as many assessments as a young ref if they choose to apply for promotion. The only difference is younger referees are more actively encouraged to apply. You also have to consider the shortage of assessors so the RDO has to prioritise promotion candidates which does tend to be the younger lot. I disagree that it will be harder though, the message from Neale Barry is if your good enough you'll be promoted.



I accept your opinions but in all honesty with training we get in various academies we can perhaps learn in 2.5 years what an older referee with no interest in further training or development can in 10. I quote such things as assessment marks as these are irrespective of age so I feel show me to have outperformed referees with far more experience. In fact some assessors can in fact be anti-youth.

I would say that I haven't avoided tough games. For example one of my marks in the 80s this year came from a fierce local derby in a senior league in front of a crowd of around 300.



I of course wouldn't do this when turning up to a game, I may perhaps quote my level if my credibility were questioned but would go no further.
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Training will never replace actual match based experience. You can talk and demonstrate as much as you like, but what you can't replicate is the passion, adrenaline, pace or temperature of an actual match.

So while you are off examining theoretical situations in a nice calm polite clinical environment, the older referee has already had those lesson learnt in the heat of matches. And probably learnt it quicker and with longer lasting effect!

I'm for youth progression but to be honest, to have a 19 yr old kid with only 2.5 seasons of "experience" behind them officiating in the semi pro game is really just a recipe for disaster. Ask Stuart Attwell!
 
I trust you would ask Michael Oliver, Bobby Madley and Craig Pawson the same thing?

Anyway this thread is not about my ability on the pitch. Personally I don't feel I need to prove that to anyone. My stats speak for themselves, I have outperformed referees with far more experience than myself over the last season and therefore deserve to be where I'm at!
 
I would say definitely become an assessor - although I do not have first hand experience of the system, what I do know for sure is that one extra assessor is much better than no extra assessor! And even if it's only for younger refs, another assessor means that more games can be covered in a time frame suitable for the promotion candidates. I know some people who have had problems with there not being enough assessors available.

Maybe some teams might want an older more experienced ref for their match, but at the end of the day it's better to have a ref than have to cancel a game. Also, being experienced doesn't necessarily make you better at anything. With all the complaints about poor assessors who are more 'mature' and don't keep up with the laws as well, we should not be discouraging young assessors who know their stuff and want to put the effort in.
 
Pierluigi said:
This summer I will be taking an assessors course to not only help my development but hopefully to give something back as well. i initially thought I would just plan to assess younger referees (probably u21) at levels 6, 7 and 8 when I was free...however the more I've thought about it I am becoming more open to assessing referees of all ages. My initial reason for limiting the age was to avoid a situation where a referee may feel like he's being patronised as a referee far younger than him will be his assessor.

Just out of curiosity for the slightly older referees, say late 20s and above (I realise this isnt old its just relative to my age haha!) how would you feel if someone like myself (19 yo but Level 4) were to come and assess you?

Honest opinions appreciated and valued!!
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Owen Webster said:
I would say definitely become an assessor - although I do not have first hand experience of the system, what I do know for sure is that one extra assessor is much better than no extra assessor! And even if it's only for younger refs, another assessor means that more games can be covered in a time frame suitable for the promotion candidates. I know some people who have had problems with there not being enough assessors available.
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While I would recommend you take the assessors course, I understand all the comments about you being "too young".

If you wanted to help the new 7 & 8's. then prehaps more a mentoring role for them woudl suit you. This woudl allow you to aid their development which the confinds of the assessors role. The assessor is required to prepare his report against the competences for the level and can sometime be harsh for a new referee. A mentoring role (which some CFA pay for) would allow a more informal reporting structure and acheive your wish.

It is unlikely that an assessor would be appointed for U-16 or younger football - so would allow you to help on a Sunday.
Most assessors for promotions are done on a Saturday - In NRCFA I have done 2 sunday promotion assessments in 5 years, but did watch about 10 junior referees as part of their Module 4 (practicial experience).
 
I am definitely keen to get the qualification @Owen Webster with the certain intention of helping the younger lads when I can (mid-week games would certainly allow me to do this). There are a couple of others (aged early 20s) who already have it!

Without offending some assessors on here such as @lincs22 and @Brian Hamilton I do think there is an argument to say that there may be an advantage to young 7/8s being assessed by someone such as myself. With all the experience older assessors may have the likelihood is they refereed for 15-20 years from their mid 30s until they were in their mid 50s. Even with such experience you cant escape from the fact that they have had no experience of what its like to be a 'young referee'. Being a young referee comes with its unique challenges and pressures that it can be difficult for an adult to relate to. I'm also someone that has been deemed good enough to referee at a semi-professional level so I must be doing something right on the pitch and would therefore hopefully be seen as appropriate to give sound advice certainly to those officiating in junior OA or youth football. Let's not forget that their are a lot of Supply League assessors out there that have not refereed at that level themselves. Yet they are deemed appropriate to assess at that level. Surely their experience could equally be called into question!
 
lincs22 said:
While I would recommend you take the assessors course, I understand all the comments about you being "too young".

If you wanted to help the new 7 & 8's. then prehaps more a mentoring role for them woudl suit you. This woudl allow you to aid their development which the confinds of the assessors role. The assessor is required to prepare his report against the competences for the level and can sometime be harsh for a new referee. A mentoring role (which some CFA pay for) would allow a more informal reporting structure and acheive your wish.

It is unlikely that an assessor would be appointed for U-16 or younger football - so would allow you to help on a Sunday.
Most assessors for promotions are done on a Saturday - In NRCFA I have done 2 sunday promotion assessments in 5 years, but did watch about 10 junior referees as part of their Module 4 (practicial experience).
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By 'younger' I meant the 17/18 year olds going for promotion - I am fully aware that assessments are very rarely carried out on youth games
 
I was of the belief that you had to referee at a certain level to assess on it? Is that not correct?
 
Supermonkey said:
I was of the belief that you had to referee at a certain level to assess on it? Is that not correct?
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No this is not the case, I know assessors at Contrib and Supply league level that havent. In fact I believe @Brian Hamilton has only ever been a 5 (I may be mistaken!), not sure about @lincs22! Not a criticism guys as I'm sure you both do a great job, just playing devils advocate! However I do know some referees that will barely read their assessment from some assessors as they don't deem them to have been a decent enough referee themselves to comment on their performance which is at a much higher level than the assessor ever achieved!
 
I was an old class 1 and refereed at supply league (so class 4) in New numbers.

As for the age thing, I qualified at 14 went straight into adult football (none of the child protection issues of today). Youngest referee in Links, at that time.

Supply league at 22, so I am aware of "kids refereeing adult games".

However, injury forced me to quit refereeing at 29.
 
lincs22 said:
I was an old class 1 and refereed at supply league (so class 4) in New numbers.

As for the age thing, I qualified at 14 went straight into adult football (none of the child protection issues of today). Youngest referee in Links, at that time.

Supply league at 22, so I am aware of "kids refereeing adult games".

However, injury forced me to quit refereeing at 29.
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You are in a privileged position then lincs! I think you'll agree though that most assessors do not have this in common with you!
 
I try not to think too much about assessors and think more about assessments. Of course, I can't promise that I always manage that but it's what one tries to do.
 
Ryan Owens said:
I try not to think too much about assessors and think more about assessments. Of course, I can't promise that I always manage that but it's what one tries to do.
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In all fairness though it shouldn't matter to someone such as yourself who is also very young. The problem comes when it can appear patronising to someone far older than the assessor!
 
Well then I think that said older refs need to have an attitude adjustment. If you're empowered by the association to go out and do the assessment then they have nothing to say about it and should either take your input on board or not -- either way, you've done your job.
 
Pierluigi, well done on your achievements so far.

Padfoot, was it not you who berated me a couple of weeks ago for not encouraging a developing match official? Let me ask you a question, in the company you work for/manage/own do you spend 80% of your time working on the product which produces 80% of your current product portfolio but may become obsolete at any time or do you invest for the future and spend it on the 20% that has the potential to produce far more profit and growth than the other 80% will generate in the next 5 years?

I believe that any referee who puts something back into the game for the development of others deserves recognition and respect. If that referee happens to be an 18 year old providing mentor/assessor support to another referee, then so be it, however old that other referee may be.
 
Personally I couldn't give 2 hoots of the age or sex of my assessor!
I'm a level 7 referee of (37 years years old) and I would welcome any advise from any level referee.
There appears to be a lot of level 7/8 referees on here who seem to think they know everything on refereeing despite the fact they've only refereed youth football and a handful of OA games.

I don't know all there is to know about the game, but I like to think I read the game very well as I've played the game for 27 years and played to western league standard (level 4 referee standard).

There's some people on here who need to start listening to a few people and take on board some advice.
(Yes it's been a long day at work).

By the way, congratulations on your level 4 status at your age, you've obviously got a bright future ahead of you.
 
I think the key point here is actually that if they choose not to listen to you and not to develop, that's not your problem. You can only point out problems and suggest improvements, it's up to those referees to implement them into their game. Is it possible to do that in a tactful way? Yes, it is as possible as it is to be a belligerent jerk and come in and be super ineffective (but I don't get the sense that you'll be that way). Ultimately it's this: you do your job, they can choose what they want to do with it but if the FA has sent you there, then the FA has your back and, assuming that your reports are all of high quality, you're good to go.
 
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