Just out of interest, how lenient are you, if at all, towards U13s/14s? U15s is where I draw the line but in these age groups I am far more likely to use a talking to and attempt to educate a player for a soft, if card-worthy offence, rather than bring out the cards... Thoughts?
Junior/Youth Lenience
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Referee as I referee open age in about 95% of cases.
MattyontheWhistle
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Once they are playing the full game. 11-a-side on full pitches, then they get the full LOTG from me. Here it is at u13.
You have to give red for DOGSO regardless of age group. I have given yellows at u11/12 but I certainly don't do it that often. As u13 is their first year of 11-a-side, I am stricter than 9-a-side but still lenient with regards to cards, and then from u14 upwards it's LOTG. Haven't had any issues with that approach.
Had a 14's game yesterday which resulted in the goalkeeper being shown a red card for OFFINABUS. This and DOGSO I will punish but other incidents (differentiating between a careless and reckless challenge, minor flare ups) that would probably be punished with a yellow, most notably at professional level, I tend to have a word and explain why they are being penalised.
So at U7's you would send them off for a clumsy tackle with the striker clear through on goal????
Sounds harsh, I know, but this is what everyone I've spoken to (in refereeing) has said, including, crucially, on my module 5 at County FA. This is one reason I avoid mini soccer!
Reffariiii
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I haven't done a youth game in quite a while, but for me, it has always been a caution when a caution is needed and a red when red is needed. You are the referee, not a coach.
hattersfan
Active Member
Would never give a red for DOGSO at an age group less than U14. Had this a while ago, shot on goal, going in, 12 year old uses his instinctive reactions and puts his hands up to block it. Gave the penalty of course and then gave him a talking to. No problems, all players and parents were happy with it. Common sense applied I like to think.
Reffariiii
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What would happen if you were assessed? It isn't up to you to pick and chose which laws you apply and to who they apply.
hattersfan
Active Member
Then the assessor would have the common sense to know that the last thing a 12 year old who may not be the most confident person in the world needs is a confidence knock and a £50 fine for something that had no malicious intent whatsoever, I don't care if I was being assessed, I just wouldn't do it, simple as.
Do assessors ever assess referees at u13 games and lower?
Whilst i have a very different mindset from hattersfan where refereeing u13's and below is concerned, I'm delighted to know that not everyone feels the need to kowtow to the gods of assessment
'Never' is a very big word mind, hatters. Under 12 through on goal, no-one to beat, 2 feet out and on the point of tapping the ball into the net when the opposition goalkeeper smacks him on the back of his head with a cunningly concealed shovel. Player collapses in a heap and goalkeeper gathers up the ball before it crosses the line
Surely you'd consider a DOGSO for that one
Whilst i have a very different mindset from hattersfan where refereeing u13's and below is concerned, I'm delighted to know that not everyone feels the need to kowtow to the gods of assessment
'Never' is a very big word mind, hatters. Under 12 through on goal, no-one to beat, 2 feet out and on the point of tapping the ball into the net when the opposition goalkeeper smacks him on the back of his head with a cunningly concealed shovel. Player collapses in a heap and goalkeeper gathers up the ball before it crosses the line
Surely you'd consider a DOGSO for that one
Do assessors ever assess referees at u13 games and lower?
Whilst i have a very different mindset from hattersfan where refereeing u13's and below is concerned, I'm delighted to know that not everyone feels the need to kowtow to the gods of assessment
'Never' is a very big word mind, hatters. Under 12 through on goal, no-one to beat, 2 feet out and on the point of tapping the ball into the net when the opposition goalkeeper smacks him on the back of his head with a cunningly concealed shovel. Player collapses in a heap and goalkeeper gathers up the ball before it crosses the line
Surely you'd consider a DOGSO for that one
Not sure about assessors but I had a mentor for my first ever game. U11. Keeper brought down a player one on one, was DOGSO but I issued a yellow. All parties happy & a big well done from the mentor at the end of the game. Don't care what others say, a 10/11 year old will not learn from a £30/£40 fine and a match ban, getting sent off and missing some of the match would be punishment enough but seeing as from day one I would always send cards in regardless of a situation, only a £10 fine was much more received and probably the best outcome for all.
Reffariiii
RefChat Addict
I'm sorry, but first things first, if you want to get up the ladder, you have to please the assessors, no if buts or maybe's about it. Also, with younger referees being promoted quicker, it is very possible that you would be assessed at an U13 match, obviously the criteria would be different, but I would imagine that DOGSO is DOGSO be it a senior game or an U13 game.
It comes down to why your refereeing in my opinion. If your there to be promoted, to get higher up, then you shouldn't even consider not giving a red for a DOGSO, if your doing it for the money, or have no ambition to be promoted, then of course, wrong as it is, your more likely to do things how you want to do them. Its this difference in opinion that does unfortunately make officiating that little bit more difficult at times. We have all heard of 'last week's ref'!
Personally, I'm there to enforce the laws of the game, not to decide which law applies to who, and to decide how a player will learn. The referee is there to referee.
It comes down to why your refereeing in my opinion. If your there to be promoted, to get higher up, then you shouldn't even consider not giving a red for a DOGSO, if your doing it for the money, or have no ambition to be promoted, then of course, wrong as it is, your more likely to do things how you want to do them. Its this difference in opinion that does unfortunately make officiating that little bit more difficult at times. We have all heard of 'last week's ref'!
Personally, I'm there to enforce the laws of the game, not to decide which law applies to who, and to decide how a player will learn. The referee is there to referee.
hattersfan
Active Member
I'm sorry but I'm not sure who that comment was aimed at but if it was aimed at me, then I can assure you, I have every intention of progressing as far as possible, but I'm not going to "suck up" to the assessor to do so. At the end if the day, as you say, rules are rules, however, they should be applied with common sense!
As Evan said (and I know I've said this before),how is it at all beneficial to lump a 10 year old with a £40 fine for an offence that had no malicious intent whatsoever?
Football at that level should be all about enjoyment and if you're going to take away that enjoyment because you want to "suck up" to the assessor, then in my opinion, you are ruining the game!
As Evan said (and I know I've said this before),how is it at all beneficial to lump a 10 year old with a £40 fine for an offence that had no malicious intent whatsoever?
Football at that level should be all about enjoyment and if you're going to take away that enjoyment because you want to "suck up" to the assessor, then in my opinion, you are ruining the game!
To be fair, Hatters, Reffariii, with his impressive Level 3 signage, said 'please the assessors' rather than 'suck up to the assessor' and there is clearly a subtle difference.
Assessors have to follow those 'rules are rules' that you mention and, assuming that assessors are more establishment than anti-establishment, then it stands to reason that you will almost certainly get marked down for not applying the lotg correctly which could, ultimately, affect your progress through the levels.
That's not to say who is right and who is wrong on this issue of leniency and, as i've already said, I admire your principles. There are a rainbow of options on where to draw the line on this site alone. I certainly believe that I have received mixed messages from my coaches on my training course, my observers and the more experienced members of the refereeing fraternity that i have met so far. The F.A. / F.I.F.A. are the one's who have to have the final word on this subject...and, rightly or wrongly, they have chosen not to.
Assessors have to follow those 'rules are rules' that you mention and, assuming that assessors are more establishment than anti-establishment, then it stands to reason that you will almost certainly get marked down for not applying the lotg correctly which could, ultimately, affect your progress through the levels.
That's not to say who is right and who is wrong on this issue of leniency and, as i've already said, I admire your principles. There are a rainbow of options on where to draw the line on this site alone. I certainly believe that I have received mixed messages from my coaches on my training course, my observers and the more experienced members of the refereeing fraternity that i have met so far. The F.A. / F.I.F.A. are the one's who have to have the final word on this subject...and, rightly or wrongly, they have chosen not to.
Hattersfan, you say that the game is about enjoyment and indeed, I agree. However, by not sending a kid off and preserving his 'enjoyment' are you not taking it away from the kid who was through on goal? He's the one who could have scored, thoroughly enjoyed the moment, celebrated after helping his team win the game and received extra pocket money from Dad afterwards for a good performance. That's more like enjoyment to me, and denying that is certainly a punishable offense in both my book and the magic book. In not sending the kid off, you are not keeping enjoyment in the game but merely shifting it from one kid to another which I feel is unfair. The exact same scenario applies to what you said about the handball incident. The kid who denied the goal took that strikers enjoyment out of the match somewhat.
You also say that kids will not learn from being sent off, but I disagree. Of course he will learn, since he committed the foul, was red carded and had to miss the remainder of the match and perhaps a few more. If you fail to dismiss for red card offenses, he will never know that he should not have done what he did. In future, he will remember the time that 'last week's ref' sent him off for such a thing and cease to commit those fouls. By not sending off for such incidents, you are only crucifying next week's ref who wants to apply the laws properly.
You also say that kids will not learn from being sent off, but I disagree. Of course he will learn, since he committed the foul, was red carded and had to miss the remainder of the match and perhaps a few more. If you fail to dismiss for red card offenses, he will never know that he should not have done what he did. In future, he will remember the time that 'last week's ref' sent him off for such a thing and cease to commit those fouls. By not sending off for such incidents, you are only crucifying next week's ref who wants to apply the laws properly.
Loving your first para, Owen (thumbs up emoticon)
As for the second I would argue that managers can still educate the offenders even if they're not sent off - let's face it this is still happening at academy level, never mind, u13's, tho' i agree that they should learn more quickly with the short, sharp shock of a sending off, a fine and a suspension.
As for 'crucifying next week's ref', hopefully most ref's are made of sterner stuff and show little regard for any comment about 'last weeks ref'
As for the second I would argue that managers can still educate the offenders even if they're not sent off - let's face it this is still happening at academy level, never mind, u13's, tho' i agree that they should learn more quickly with the short, sharp shock of a sending off, a fine and a suspension.
As for 'crucifying next week's ref', hopefully most ref's are made of sterner stuff and show little regard for any comment about 'last weeks ref'
Hehe thanks I thought of that randomly earlier in the season and it makes tricky decision making much easier now. If there's an incident that I feel may be a little harsh or I am unsure etc, I think instead about the kid who was infringed and it tends to make it much easier to both make and sell the decision.
I would hope the coaches would Haywain, but the majority of kids can't even take throw ins properly (even at academies sometimes) so I'd rather not leave it up to the coaches! Plus let's not forget that red card would actually be a huge deal for an average kid compared to an adult who wouldn't care as much, meaning he would not be likely to forget the incident for a long time.
Yes, I think most refs wouldn't think too much regarding that and I personally don't give a damn whether the ref last week sent little Johnny off, but it would be nicer and would make our jobs much easier if we were all on the same page, of course
I thought of that randomly earlier in the season and it makes tricky decision making much easier now. If there's an incident that I feel may be a little harsh or I am unsure etc, I think instead about the kid who was infringed and it tends to make it much easier to both make and sell the decision.I would hope the coaches would Haywain, but the majority of kids can't even take throw ins properly (even at academies sometimes) so I'd rather not leave it up to the coaches! Plus let's not forget that red card would actually be a huge deal for an average kid compared to an adult who wouldn't care as much, meaning he would not be likely to forget the incident for a long time.
Yes, I think most refs wouldn't think too much regarding that and I personally don't give a damn whether the ref last week sent little Johnny off, but it would be nicer and would make our jobs much easier if we were all on the same page, of course
Reffariiii
RefChat Addict
I understand what you are saying, but I don't understand why you would potentially jeopardise a possible better mark or a promotion, in order to do something that is not in your remit, IE educating rather than punishing? And I agree with Owen, a child will learn from being sent off. I believe, if anything, they are being better educated by the referees who do go according to the LOTG than those who don't.
As for the matter of the fine or suspension, as a referee, you CANNOT have this in mind when making a decision in a game, as soon as you start doing this, you open up a whole minefield, its better not to start on that one... Think about it, if you were a policeman and whilst on duty, you saw a young man stealing from a shop, would you refrain from arresting him, taking him to the station because you fear he might lose out after a trial? Just something to think about.
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