The Ref Stop

Changed drop ball law … devil in the detail

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RustyRef said:
You won't have seen a referee in a professional game run a diagonal like that for at least 10 years, that's not just England, they don't do that in any country now. It initially morphed into the lazy s, a bit like this (not quite right but best I can find. But since then it has become even more extreme and when the attack is down the right wing referees would be expected to be roughly where I've drawn the red X.

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I know that's just a diagram but it illustrates the problem. You're blocking the pass.
 
The Ref Stop
bloovee said:
Transition is used now to mean what happens when a defending team gets possession. And if the ref is ahead of the attack, it can be a long way to catch up with play going in the other direction.
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I fully understand "transition", as do the folks in this group.
From current experience, however, it is not a word that Referee Developers would use with new referees, as most of the younger course members struggle to understand words like "rapport", "transition", and similar.
Sad but true.
 
bloovee said:
Transition is used now to mean what happens when a defending team gets possession. And if the ref is ahead of the attack, it can be a long way to catch up with play going in the other direction.
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It is more nuanced than you are making out.

If a team has the ball unchallenged with no pressure then you should be looking to be where then next danger is.

If the opposition are pressing then you should be closer thus not leaving yourself with a long way to catch up if the transition happens.
 
DJIC said:
Would you still think for a newbie referee, trying to keep it simple is, ‘try & run a diagonal, move to the left as play transitions so you are looking in at tackles form the side’.

When you mentor a brand new referee, positioning is usually an issue.

Trying to explain a lazy S, with all the other things you’re trying to learn is too much?

Thoughts?
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When I tech the newbie class for refs for youth games, I describe it as generally trying to have play between you and the lead AR—this essentially puts you into a loose diagonal. (I got back into reffing about the time that “deep and wide” stopped being a prime mantra and people started talking about the S or about the lanes.)
 
Given the way the book has grown over the years, it's way past time they changed the "Positioning, Movement and Teamwork" pages. For a start, what is a "lead AR"? And if, with no obvious authority, a "wide diagonal" is no longer being taught, why is it still in there?

As for the "lazy S", what is the point of that? It assumes you've got time not to run in a straight line! If play is down the middle of the park, why would you want to bend your run away from play toward the "left" touchline? If play ends up on the "right" near the AR, you're nearly the width of the pitch from anywhere near the "lazy S". To me, it's just a bit of the wide diagonal without the flexibility.

 
bloovee said:
Given the way the book has grown over the years, it's way past time they changed the "Positioning, Movement and Teamwork" pages. For a start, what is a "lead AR"? And if, with no obvious authority, a "wide diagonal" is no longer being taught, why is it still in there?

As for the "lazy S", what is the point of that? It assumes you've got time not to run in a straight line! If play is down the middle of the park, why would you want to bend your run away from play toward the "left" touchline? If play ends up on the "right" near the AR, you're nearly the width of the pitch from anywhere near the "lazy S". To me, it's just a bit of the wide diagonal without the flexibility.

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The point of the lazy s was that you were closer to decisions in the penalty area whilst still staying wide as play built up. Prior to that you often had referees out wide left when a challenge was going in on the attacking right side of the penalty area, looking through multiple players and this was obviously far from optimal. Now it has been taken a step further in that if there's a challenge there you are expected to be much further over towards it, coming completely off the old diagonal and even being on the right hand side of the D if necessary.

Will it mean referees get in the way more? Probably, but it should also result in more accurate and credible decisions so there is a trade off to be had. There's also the argument that players are much more skillful these days and should be able to play around any referee that might be in their way. It is much more predictable now where the ball is going to go.
 
RustyRef said:
The point of the lazy s was that you were closer to decisions in the penalty area whilst still staying wide as play built up. Prior to that you often had referees out wide left when a challenge was going in on the attacking right side of the penalty area, looking through multiple players and this was obviously far from optimal. Now it has been taken a step further in that if there's a challenge there you are expected to be much further over towards it, coming completely off the old diagonal and even being on the right hand side of the D if necessary.

Will it mean referees get in the way more? Probably, but it should also result in more accurate and credible decisions so there is a trade off to be had. There's also the argument that players are much more skillful these days and should be able to play around any referee that might be in their way. It is much more predictable now where the ball is going to go.
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But that's what I mean. To get in a position near to play on the right, you're nowhere near the lazy S line, which is further left than the strict diagonal.

And if you've gone over to the right to be closer to play, if the attacker swings in a cross from the right you're not near where it's going to land on the left - and you and the AR are both looking from the same side of the FoP and you've broken the principle of keeping play between you and the AR.

As for playing round the referee, too often the referee becomes part of the defending team's bus parking.
 
bloovee said:
But that's what I mean. To get in a position near to play on the right, you're nowhere near the lazy S line, which is further left than the strict diagonal.

And if you've gone over to the right to be closer to play, if the attacker swings in a cross from the right you're not near where it's going to land on the left - and you and the AR are both looking from the same side of the FoP and you've broken the principle of keeping play between you and the AR.

As for playing round the referee, too often the referee becomes part of the defending team's bus parking.
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The lazy S is no longer a thing, it has evolved beyond that and is now about being in the best position to make a credible decision. I'm not saying they go and stand next to the AR, if play is in the right wing area and the referee is towards the right side of the penalty area the ball is still between referee and AR and they both have completely different angles.

The referee becoming part of the low block comment is, in my option, ridiculous. They will usually back out so that they aren't ahead of the ball, if clubs are blaming referees for not being able to break down the low block they need to get back on the training pitch. If players earning £300k a week can't distinguish between a referee and defending players they perhaps want to be giving some of their wages back.
 
Moving back to the original topic... a point of law came up in my match on Tuesday.

Stopped the game for an injury with the ball in the penalty area.

Told the captain (who was playing CB) it was a drop to them inside the area, anticipating the keeper to come for it.

He told me he wanted it - I had a niggling doubt in my mind thinking 'I'm sure law says that it's dropped to the GK', but the common sense angle told me there was no issue with me dropping it to the CB - which I did, and nobody said boo to a goose.

However, I was correct... law says it's 'dropped for the defending team goalkeeper in their penalty area'.

So...
a) how many other referees would think common sense suggests this is no issue - or just me? obviously I'm not sure if I'd do it again, I only did it because I didn't want to go OTT 'busy' when only 99% sure rather than 100%.
b) Presumably, this suggests we should insist the GK stands over it while we drop it, but then if he chooses not to play it and another CB (who started more than 4 metres away) runs to play it, theoretically no issue?
c) am I overthinking this?
d) how silly!
 
Law says "for the goalkeeper" so you need the goalkeeper present and they can play it or allow a team-mate to do so (as you say, coming in from 4 metres away)
Presumably the defender was about to hoof it upfield?
Another scenario would be an attacker running from 4 metres and getting to the ball while the goalkeeper waits for the defender to run in to play it . . .
Stay safe!
 
Drop it to the goalkeeper. If not for consistency, do it for next week's ref who wants to apply the law and not get stick from the players for it.

Edit: adding another reason. Drop it to CB he takes a touch and an attacker runs in, steals it and scores. You have a misapplicatiin of law and reason for a appeal for a replay of the game.
 
Yeah was just playing devils advocate really. Always better to be correct in law I agree.

Does seem a little unnecessary though, although I can't fathom why it would be advantageous for a CB to have it over the GK who can pick it up.

I only went with it the other night because it was 3-0 at the time and I had a tiny niggling doubt as to whether it did specify goalkeeper, or just defending team. Just never ever had the CB want the dropped ball in the area before.
 
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ChasObserverRefDeveloper said:
The diagonal is still shown in the positioning guidance in the good book, but the accompanying text makes it clear that it is a guide only, rather than a specific "must run here" line.
With our new referees going through the course, we suggest being on the move at all times, trying to anticipate where the ball will be in 3 seconds' time, and trying to be within 8-12 metres of the ball whenever possible.
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8-12 metres is quite/very close!, but I get it when you say whenever possible.
 
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