Positioning

Now then chaps,

I've watched various referees over the time I've not been Reffing in last 12 months and 1 thing that baffles me is positioning of referees.

I get the diagnals and being as close as possible following this and that's in my mind when I reffed and will be when I'm back on it. However I have seen refs running all over ie, not really any diagnals (No patten), I've also seen referees call again from about no more that 15 yards from center spot. I was supprised that the latter got most decisions spot on and not an ounce of chelp from either team. Whether this was due to it being a friendly or not I'm not sure. He didn't even break a sweat.

How can this be affective with no agro?

Danny said:

Now then chaps,

I've watched various referees over the time I've not been Reffing in last 12 months and 1 thing that baffles me is positioning of referees.

I get the diagnals and being as close as possible following this and that's in my mind when I reffed and will be when I'm back on it. However I have seen refs running all over ie, not really any diagnals (No patten), I've also seen referees call again from about no more that 15 yards from center spot. I was supprised that the latter got most decisions spot on and not an ounce of chelp from either team. Whether this was due to it being a friendly or not I'm not sure. He didn't even break a sweat.

How can this be affective with no agro?

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The three major factors in positioning are optimal Angle, optimal distance, and play between Ref and AR.

I give them general importance of 65%, 25%, and 10% respectively. This could vary depending on game type. Distance has more impact in selling your decision than getting it correct so in a friendly it becomes even less important. Angle by far has the most impact on getting a decision right.

In the game you referred to, I suspect he had his angle of view spot on.

And if you referee with club assistant referees who are not allowed to give offside, diagonals are less important.......

Danny said:

....I've also seen referees call again from about no more that 15 yards from center spot. I was surprised that the latter got most decisions spot on and not an ounce of chelp from either team. Whether this was due to it being a friendly or not I'm not sure. He didn't even break a sweat.

How can this be affective with no agro?

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@Danny - the answer is skill, ability and respect.
- the skill of recognising the offence;
- the ability of realising you don't need to run;
- the respect earnt by years of refereeing and/or the willingness to caution every b*****d who shows dissent.

All the older referees on this site have this. They have the need to protect their knees, ankles and bodies. Fitness is not everything at local football level.

Surprised @Sheffields Finest hasnt been in yet quizzing if it was indeed @Mintyref you were watching

In respect of OP diagnals are useful for NAR as you can loosely divide the pitch into 4 sections to reflect the patrol path of the referee and the patrol path of the assistants.

When on your own the whole pitch is your patrol path... therefore you need to follow play more closely in that respect. I was always taught an oval patrol path when refereeing on your own with CARs which may give an impression that there is no science to the positioning.

Then of course there are our more senior colleagues which @lincs22 has explained, rather diplomatically i might add.

I have to say when I see young kids patrolling the centre circle it really grinds my gears as it looks to me like they can't be botheres and it must appear that way to clubs and spectators too

Minty has eyes like a sh1t house rat and his patrol path is circular at its boundary. Why try and complicate stuff James!

JamesL said:

Surprised @Sheffields Finest hasnt been in yet quizzing if it was indeed @Mintyref you were watching

In respect of OP diagnals are useful for NAR as you can loosely divide the pitch into 4 sections to reflect the patrol path of the referee and the patrol path of the assistants.

When on your own the whole pitch is your patrol path... therefore you need to follow play more closely in that respect. I was always taught an oval patrol path when refereeing on your own with CARs which may give an impression that there is no science to the positioning.

Then of course there are our more senior colleagues which @lincs22 has explained, rather diplomatically i might add.

I have to say when I see young kids patrolling the centre circle it really grinds my gears as it looks to me like they can't be botheres and it must appear that way to clubs and spectators too

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Not me your honour, the gentleman in question apparently left the centre circle.......

Mintyref said:

And if you referee with club assistant referees who are not allowed to give offside, diagonals are less important.......

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As ever each to own but surely the opposite is true?
To accuratly detect offside, or non offside, the optimum position to adopt is wide on diagonal, allowing you to as best possible look along a line, akin to the view a NAR would have
Offside from barrel of gun view, or out wide looking along line? No brainer

Don't disagree but try keeping it up when you get drawn out of position to get closer to the action. Important thing for me was to be there or there abouts, if central it could be a beggar trying to check both ways. Often had shouts of 'keep up with play ref' only to respond from the caller's shoulder 'I think I am'......

Agreed, nobody can be everywhere. Old trick, if too central, and about to give an offside that you have detected and are going to penalise....sprint like mad for 2 secs wide..THEN blow..so when players turn round to go "wtf ref", they see you are in line (or as close as) and you restrict the complaints.....

Just on the keep up with play, I had a publicised incident 5/6 yea ago...... 0-0, 1 min to go...ball pinging around 40 yards from goal back and forth, am there, yards away from each kicker, waiting for that one through ball (looking for the offside) or the run into the pen area (pen/dive) or indeed interception and break away by other team........out of nowhere, midfielder lets fly...its travelling, so am on my toes....crashes against bar , and well, who knows..did it, did it not ! I cant give it, home team go mad, ball still in play and yes..........other team go up park and score I could not even "find" a foul to stop the inevitable. Cue understandable mass protests....... mostly about not being up with play!!! I stood next to the kicker as he kicked the shot, and had that chat with the coaches after wards but no I was meant to be on the line some 40 yards from the ball. Never going to get them all.

For the OP, this discussion about using a wider diagonal to see offsides when you have no ARs or CARs... it is a very individual thing. Ciley just said he could do 3300 Cooper in another thread (respect!), so it's not a surprise he feels confident enough to take a wide diagonal. I am confident in my legs and - this is key - the games where I have no ARs are low level enough - that I can "risk" a wide diagonal most of the time. I know I can run past the players end-to-end and there is no Juan Sebastian Veron to ping a 60 yarder to Jamie Vardy. But it's case by case, team by team, play by play.

But a lot of older, slower refs can't, a lot of refs might be a bit, well lazy, and stick to the middle... some younger ones have not been told to use the diagonal more in no AR games... and maybe also some refs don't want to take the risk of being out of position, especially if you are working with CARs in faster games.

As for the part about getting decisions right... there are a lot of talented refs out there who might not look sharp but they are totally tuned in.

As an aside I have a question: did I dream it or was "avoiding excessive movement" or something similar in the law book at one time?

santa sangria said:

For the OP, this discussion about using a wider diagonal to see offsides when you have no ARs or CARs... it is a very individual thing. Ciley just said he could do 3300 Cooper in another thread (respect!), so it's not a surprise he feels confident enough to take a wide diagonal. I am confident in my legs and - this is key - the games where I have no ARs are low level enough - that I can "risk" a wide diagonal most of the time. I know I can run past the players end-to-end and there is no Juan Sebastian Veron to ping a 60 yarder to Jamie Vardy. But it's case by case, team by team, play by play.

But a lot of older, slower refs can't, a lot of refs might be a bit, well lazy, and stick to the middle... some younger ones have not been told to use the diagonal more in no AR games... and maybe also some refs don't want to take the risk of being out of position, especially if you are working with CARs in faster games.

As for the part about getting decisions right... there are a lot of talented refs out there who might not look sharp but they are totally tuned in.

As an aside I have a question: did I dream it or was "avoiding excessive movement" or something similar in the law book at one time?

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That's the ethos that @Sheffield'sFinest used in all his games, why move more than you have to?

As pointed out earlier when I ref alone I cover more of the field when I have NARs I have more diagonals as you are working with other refs who can give decisions so you do not need to be as close when in their area.

Think I read it somewhere in a refereeing book or a wiser referee than I might have said it - the best position is the one that lets you make the correct call. They are WAAAY more experienced referees on here than me but if you need to move off a rigid diagonal so that you can get a view of the challenge/tackle then do it. Return to a "keep the play between you and the AR" soon thereafter but if you need to get off the diagonal to see the impending challenge or avoid being screened from the upcoming tackle then move . As far as distance, a more senior referee watching one of my games gave me good advice about getting wider faster and being a bit farther from play to be able to focus on more in the challenge. Sometimes a little extra distance is a big help. I'm always learning though. I'm only 400 games into the refereeing side of it

Hoosier Ref said:

Think I read it somewhere in a refereeing book or a wiser referee than I might have said it - the best position is the one that lets you make the correct call. They are WAAAY more experienced referees on here than me but if you need to move off a rigid diagonal so that you can get a view of the challenge/tackle then do it. Return to a "keep the play between you and the AR" soon thereafter but if you need to get off the diagonal to see the impending challenge or avoid being screened from the upcoming tackle then move . As far as distance, a more senior referee watching one of my games gave me good advice about getting wider faster and being a bit farther from play to be able to focus on more in the challenge. Sometimes a little extra distance is a big help. I'm always learning though. I'm only 400 games into the refereeing side of it

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There's no such thing as a rigid diagonal anymore, now it is called a "lazy S". Take a situation where play is in front of the assistant, I will be far more critical of a referee who has stayed on a rigid diagonal that one who has come right off it and is towards the right hand side of the penalty area. "Squeeze the play" gets used a lot, which basically means that as play and the ball moves away from your normal diagonal you follow it. If there's a big challenge right in from of your assistant you don't want to be 40 metres away, you want to more like 15 to 20 metres.

See @Sheffield's Finest, if you wait long enough what was unusual practice by just two of us becomes the norm! Lazy S indeed. Trouble is in our day it was called a Fast S..............(their lazy being our........)