A&H

Brentford v Forest

At a FK, if the Ref marks the spot with his foam, and no part of the ball should be in front of the foam line. If Toney had moved the ball backwards instead of to the side, nobody would complain. Perhaps instead of the Ref drawing a line, he should place the ball first and then spray a circle around the ball. Job done!!
 
The Referee Store
CapeTownRef said:
At a FK, if the Ref marks the spot with his foam, and no part of the ball should be in front of the foam line. If Toney had moved the ball backwards instead of to the side, nobody would complain. Perhaps instead of the Ref drawing a line, he should place the ball first and then spray a circle around the ball. Job done!!
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Toney is not allowed to move the ball backwards; the free kick is taken from the position of the offence. If the ball is moved backwards, an advantage is still gained because the wall is further away from the ball than it ought to be.
 
Mr Dean said:
Toney is not allowed to move the ball backwards; the free kick is taken from the position of the offence. If the ball is moved backwards, an advantage is still gained because the wall is further away from the ball than it ought to be.
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All direct free kicks are taken (or should be) from the place where the offence occurred unless it is a PK. Same for throw-ins. Yet anywhere else on the field where a direct FK is awarded, the team awarded the FK is not marked by a foam line and the kick is normally taken within a metre or two of where the offence occured. Perhaps the AR should also carry a foam dispenser to mark where the ball went out for a throw-in? Why is a FK within scoring range be an exception?
 
CapeTownRef said:
All direct free kicks are taken (or should be) from the place where the offence occurred unless it is a PK. Same for throw-ins. Yet anywhere else on the field where a direct FK is awarded, the team awarded the FK is not marked by a foam line and the kick is normally taken within a metre or two of where the offence occured. Perhaps the AR should also carry a foam dispenser to mark where the ball went out for a throw-in? Why is a FK within scoring range be an exception?
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This freekick was ceremonial just outside the 18, involving a wall and angle that favoured a right footed taker, even more so once the ball was moved..
 
I've scanned the Laws of the Game and cannot find the word 'ceremonial' anywhere. Please can you provide the exact law and sub section (if appropriate)
 
CapeTownRef said:
All direct free kicks are taken (or should be) from the place where the offence occurred unless it is a PK. Same for throw-ins. Yet anywhere else on the field where a direct FK is awarded, the team awarded the FK is not marked by a foam line and the kick is normally taken within a metre or two of where the offence occured. Perhaps the AR should also carry a foam dispenser to mark where the ball went out for a throw-in? Why is a FK within scoring range be an exception?
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Normaly taken within a metre or two ? Nah...not in my games. They're told to take it from where the offence occured within the first few mins. Show them you're in control from the outset.
 
Mr Dean said:
Toney is not allowed to move the ball backwards; the free kick is taken from the position of the offence. If the ball is moved backwards, an advantage is still gained because the wall is further away from the ball than it ought to be.
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It should be where the offence occured, nothing else
 
Clearly in law the only thing stated is that the free kick takes place from where the offence occurred. Regardless of ceremonial or not. But as we all know, we don't just referee to the letter of the law. I was taught on my basic referee's course that we should be more picky with positioning the further up the pitch you go.
 
RefereeX said:
Clearly in law the only thing stated is that the free kick takes place from where the offence occurred. Regardless of ceremonial or not. But as we all know, we don't just referee to the letter of the law. I was taught on my basic referee's course that we should be more picky with positioning the further up the pitch you go.
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Don't agree with that. Cheating is cheating, in my book.
 
BCMilan said:
Don't agree with that. Cheating is cheating, in my book.
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You're not wrong in what you say, but as a referee we have to choose our battles. We're not making any friends when we make someone move a ball 2 yards back when on the edge of their own 18 yard area, but we risk upsetting people. It's not worth the aggro. Obviously that only goes so far and if they're taking the mickey then you have to make them aware.
 
BCMilan said:
Don't agree with that. Cheating is cheating, in my book.
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Our life as referees would be much more simple if everything was as black and white as that. In reality, rightly or wrongly, there are currently accepted norms in managing a game and stepping outside of these norms tends to confuse and frustrate the participants. Of course, any referee that chooses to strictly enforce every last situation is completely within their rights from a Law point of view ... however the general advice typically given is, as @RefereeX says, to pick your battles. And let's face it, in a scientific sense NO free kick, throw in etc is ever taken from EXACTLY the correct position ... :)
 
All i'm saying is, if you stamp it out in the very first few minutes the players know you're on top of things. Once you let these things slide at the start they will push you further and further throughout the game. Yeah, start being more lenient as the game progresses, but once they start taking the Mickey, you reign them back in again
 
BCMilan said:
All i'm saying is, if you stamp it out in the very first few minutes the players know you're on top of things. Once you let these things slide at the start they will push you further and further throughout the game. Yeah, start being more lenient as the game progresses, but once they start taking the Mickey, you reign them back in again
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It might also show them that you are fussy, and that can have the opposite effect to gaining match control. If I'm observing and see a referee moving a defensive free kick back a metre or two I'm probably going to suggest that he lowers his involvement level, especially if they are just going to pass it sideways. Once it gets closer to the goal is where they need to be worrying about the exact blade or grass.
 
Can I say...

Everyone has gone on about moving the ball away from the spot the ref marked, wrongly or rightly, most attacking players respot the ball at a free kick.
It's just been highlighted more because it was Ivan Toney and his first game back, first goal back, and all focus on him in a live match.
If this was a 3pm Saturday non live event, almost guarantee no one bats an eyelid.

Also, anyone notice the wall not just stand on, but in front of the line the referee drew for them to actually stand BEHIND. That was the defenders way of trying to gain an advantage by shortening the distance between them and ball for Toney to attempt an up and over the wall attempt at goal.
Both teams were, and always will, attempt to find ways to deceive the referee.

Throughout the game (and other games), players take free kicks never where they're meant to be (even your own games). Attacking third free kicks, you're never going to be on the right blade of grass to know where it should be taken.
In this same match, England rightfully stopped a free kick from being taken quickly as it was from the wrong spot. Indicated to keeper it's in line with assistant. But was meant to be by the touchline but taken in the centre of his own half. Again, rushing to take it as he is chasing a goal.

Throw ins never in the right place. Actually, in this game, a Nottingham Forest player was asked to go back a few yards and didn't move, took the throw and referee just got on with it.

Keepers are meant to release the ball after 6 seconds of control, and teams when a goal up will waste time by having their keeper dive on the ball and sit there until all the players have left the area before getting up and then run around the area for a few more seconds to run down the clock. That too is cheating the opponents of valuable seconds to get that important equaliser (or even winner if teams holding out for a draw).

Everything a player/team do is to benefit themselves and a lot are bending/breaking the laws of the game doing so.
 
The wall, for this free kick, was stood on/in front of the line thus meaning it was closer to the ball than the referee indicated with the same foam spray.

Would there be the same uproar if Toney took the free kick from it's "original" spot and the wall blocked it from going in, with them being in the wrong place?
 
ladbroke8745 said:
Can I say...

Everyone has gone on about moving the ball away from the spot the ref marked, wrongly or rightly, most attacking players respot the ball at a free kick.
It's just been highlighted more because it was Ivan Toney and his first game back, first goal back, and all focus on him in a live match.
If this was a 3pm Saturday non live event, almost guarantee no one bats an eyelid.

Also, anyone notice the wall not just stand on, but in front of the line the referee drew for them to actually stand BEHIND. That was the defenders way of trying to gain an advantage by shortening the distance between them and ball for Toney to attempt an up and over the wall attempt at goal.
Both teams were, and always will, attempt to find ways to deceive the referee.

Throughout the game (and other games), players take free kicks never where they're meant to be (even your own games). Attacking third free kicks, you're never going to be on the right blade of grass to know where it should be taken.
In this same match, England rightfully stopped a free kick from being taken quickly as it was from the wrong spot. Indicated to keeper it's in line with assistant. But was meant to be by the touchline but taken in the centre of his own half. Again, rushing to take it as he is chasing a goal.

Throw ins never in the right place. Actually, in this game, a Nottingham Forest player was asked to go back a few yards and didn't move, took the throw and referee just got on with it.

Keepers are meant to release the ball after 6 seconds of control, and teams when a goal up will waste time by having their keeper dive on the ball and sit there until all the players have left the area before getting up and then run around the area for a few more seconds to run down the clock. That too is cheating the opponents of valuable seconds to get that important equaliser (or even winner if teams holding out for a draw).

Everything a player/team do is to benefit themselves and a lot are bending/breaking the laws of the game doing so.
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If he had just moved the ball I suspect the furore would have been much less. Its the fact he moved the foam as well that moves it into more of a deception category.
 
RustyRef said:
If he had just moved the ball I suspect the furore would have been much less. Its the fact he moved the foam as well that moves it into more of a deception category.
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That I agree with.
I've seen players completely run the foam entirely.

This particular free kick.
You've got Yates spotting the move, asking Turner to have another look. Turner says it's fine.
You've got Hudson-Odoi looking at it, seeing it move, and just stands 2 yards off the end of the wall "apparently" to stop a wide run. Who's doing a wide run in that position of the pitch at a direct free kick directly in front of goal? There was no one wide.

Personally, I think Hudson-Odoi takes a lot of blame for this. He is experienced enough to realise that there is no one for him to mark, so get on the end of the wall. Remove that space Toney has.
Yates too should have stepped up and said "screw this, I'm moving left one pace" and taken the flack if needed. He was demonstrating to the keeper it needed to move. Move then. Can clearly see it's Toney taking and clearly see he is right footed. He isn't left footed, and putting it to the left of the wall. He is going right. Move to the walls left and it nullifies it more. Or drag Hudson-Odoi in to fill that void he thinks is there.
Instead Hudson-Odoi just badly swings a leg at the ball and does nothing.
 
ladbroke8745 said:
That I agree with.
I've seen players completely run the foam entirely.

This particular free kick.
You've got Yates spotting the move, asking Turner to have another look. Turner says it's fine.
You've got Hudson-Odoi looking at it, seeing it move, and just stands 2 yards off the end of the wall "apparently" to stop a wide run. Who's doing a wide run in that position of the pitch at a direct free kick directly in front of goal? There was no one wide.

Personally, I think Hudson-Odoi takes a lot of blame for this. He is experienced enough to realise that there is no one for him to mark, so get on the end of the wall. Remove that space Toney has.
Yates too should have stepped up and said "screw this, I'm moving left one pace" and taken the flack if needed. He was demonstrating to the keeper it needed to move. Move then. Can clearly see it's Toney taking and clearly see he is right footed. He isn't left footed, and putting it to the left of the wall. He is going right. Move to the walls left and it nullifies it more. Or drag Hudson-Odoi in to fill that void he thinks is there.
Instead Hudson-Odoi just badly swings a leg at the ball and does nothing.
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No player can join the wall unless their keeper tells them to, they'd just be told to go away. But rather than writing letters to PGMOL complaining about the officiating, I'd suggest Forest would be better placed focusing their efforts on teaching their keeper how to set up for free kicks. It wasn't just a player telling him there was a problem, if was the captain on the day and to ignore him was beyond ridiculous.
 
RustyRef said:
No player can join the wall unless their keeper tells them to, they'd just be told to go away. But rather than writing letters to PGMOL complaining about the officiating, I'd suggest Forest would be better placed focusing their efforts on teaching their keeper how to set up for free kicks. It wasn't just a player telling him there was a problem, if was the captain on the day and to ignore him was beyond ridiculous.
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Any player can join it, just depends if they want the abuse from keeper if it goes wrong, IE blocking keeper.
This never would have.
Hudson-Odoi was a statue doing nothing.
 
ladbroke8745 said:
Any player can join it, just depends if they want the abuse from keeper if it goes wrong, IE blocking keeper.
This never would have.
Hudson-Odoi was a statue doing nothing.
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No they can't. I used to play in goal, albeit it reluctantly, if I said I wanted a 4 man wall and a 5th joined I would be marching out to physically remove the 5th player. Although I agree Hudson-Odoi could have done something more useful like pick up an opponent in the box.
 
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