A&H

Changing my mind based on players reactions

Macca

Macca

Active Member
Folks - interested in your feedback on this on that happened to me on Saturday.

By myself doing an U18 Premier 1st (red) vs 4th (blue) place game. I've ref'ed both before a few times.
Red team are all moaners, including the side line and spectators. If the ball goes out on the side line that is clearly blue, all red scream for it that its red. I mean calling for everything even those that are clearly the other way.
I've learned to deal with them and ignore them but clamp down on any sort of dissent so I'm not particularly phased by the way they behave.

So, somehow the blue team who are inferior manage to go 2-1 up with about 5 mins of normal time to go. Ball goes out over the goal line and I couldn't tell who it came off due to a crowd of players around the ball and the ball pinging around. I pointed for a goal kick. Most the players who were around the ball didn't see my signal and the blue defenders who were between the penalty box and corner flag by the goal line walked back towards the goal to get set up for a corner while red also behaved as they were expecting a corner. I had some red players who were behind me shouting at me that it was a corner. Based purely on the movement of the blue defensive players towards their own goal, I changed my mind and gave the corner. Yep - you can imagine how that went down. I explained briefly to the protesting blue players that I made a decision but based upon the movement of the defensive players who were next to the ball, I believe I made an incorrect decision and therefore am changing my mind for it to be a corner. Blue team were going mental telling me I couldn't change my mind etc. but I stuck with the corner.
Low and behold, red score from the corner and it finishes 2-2.

I don't believe there is anything in law that prevents me from doing what I done, but interested in any thoughts you may have.
BTW: I do think that if I stuck by my decision for a goal kick, by the time the blue defensive players knew I awarded the goal kick, it would have been obvious to everyone in the ground that I got the decision wrong.
 
The Referee Store
I think it is hard to sell changing a decision if you are alone or not in contact with your assistant. If I were to change my mind, I would go over to my assistant and pretend to discuss with him about it and then change my decision. Of course not possible without an assistant.
Also, if in doubt, I would give a goal kick over a corner, to prevent what unluckily happened to you. If in doubt, also with throw ins, I would give it to the defending team. It's called safe refereeing and will save you some trouble. Some referees exaggerate with safe refereeing and give very soft fouls to the defenders whenever possible.
I rememeber A. Taylor once gave a corner and from the reaction he knew he made a mistake. The corner is taken and before the ball reaches the middle, he whistles for a 'attacking foul'. Even the commentators had a chuckle about the ghost foul :D (the camera even zoomed in on him^^)
 
As halter42 says, changing your mind is never easy even is the final decision turns out to be the correct one. Luckily I've never had a serious incident but definitely a few throw ins where I've signalled one way only for the opposite team to collect the ball without argument. A few years ago a senior referee suggested in a training course I was attending that referees should not signal for throw ins or goal kicks or at least delay the signal pending the players reactions. His point was that in 99% of such cases the outcome is clear and the players will react accordingly. Let them get on with it but be prepared to step in if necessary.
 
Macca said:
Folks - interested in your feedback on this on that happened to me on Saturday.

By myself doing an U18 Premier 1st (red) vs 4th (blue) place game. I've ref'ed both before a few times.
Red team are all moaners, including the side line and spectators. If the ball goes out on the side line that is clearly blue, all red scream for it that its red. I mean calling for everything even those that are clearly the other way.
I've learned to deal with them and ignore them but clamp down on any sort of dissent so I'm not particularly phased by the way they behave.

So, somehow the blue team who are inferior manage to go 2-1 up with about 5 mins of normal time to go. Ball goes out over the goal line and I couldn't tell who it came off due to a crowd of players around the ball and the ball pinging around. I pointed for a goal kick. Most the players who were around the ball didn't see my signal and the blue defenders who were between the penalty box and corner flag by the goal line walked back towards the goal to get set up for a corner while red also behaved as they were expecting a corner. I had some red players who were behind me shouting at me that it was a corner. Based purely on the movement of the blue defensive players towards their own goal, I changed my mind and gave the corner. Yep - you can imagine how that went down. I explained briefly to the protesting blue players that I made a decision but based upon the movement of the defensive players who were next to the ball, I believe I made an incorrect decision and therefore am changing my mind for it to be a corner. Blue team were going mental telling me I couldn't change my mind etc. but I stuck with the corner.
Low and behold, red score from the corner and it finishes 2-2.

I don't believe there is anything in law that prevents me from doing what I done, but interested in any thoughts you may have.
BTW: I do think that if I stuck by my decision for a goal kick, by the time the blue defensive players knew I awarded the goal kick, it would have been obvious to everyone in the ground that I got the decision wrong.
Click to expand...
I've had your exact same scenario before and changed my mind. The defenders gave the game away and you were right to do so.
 
If you are not sure why not wait a second or two to see player reactions before making a decision?

For me you made the right decision at the end but just made it harder for yourself.
 
Macca said:
Folks - interested in your feedback on this on that happened to me on Saturday.

By myself doing an U18 Premier 1st (red) vs 4th (blue) place game. I've ref'ed both before a few times.
Red team are all moaners, including the side line and spectators. If the ball goes out on the side line that is clearly blue, all red scream for it that its red. I mean calling for everything even those that are clearly the other way.
I've learned to deal with them and ignore them but clamp down on any sort of dissent so I'm not particularly phased by the way they behave.

So, somehow the blue team who are inferior manage to go 2-1 up with about 5 mins of normal time to go. Ball goes out over the goal line and I couldn't tell who it came off due to a crowd of players around the ball and the ball pinging around. I pointed for a goal kick. Most the players who were around the ball didn't see my signal and the blue defenders who were between the penalty box and corner flag by the goal line walked back towards the goal to get set up for a corner while red also behaved as they were expecting a corner. I had some red players who were behind me shouting at me that it was a corner. Based purely on the movement of the blue defensive players towards their own goal, I changed my mind and gave the corner. Yep - you can imagine how that went down. I explained briefly to the protesting blue players that I made a decision but based upon the movement of the defensive players who were next to the ball, I believe I made an incorrect decision and therefore am changing my mind for it to be a corner. Blue team were going mental telling me I couldn't change my mind etc. but I stuck with the corner.
Low and behold, red score from the corner and it finishes 2-2.

I don't believe there is anything in law that prevents me from doing what I done, but interested in any thoughts you may have.
BTW: I do think that if I stuck by my decision for a goal kick, by the time the blue defensive players knew I awarded the goal kick, it would have been obvious to everyone in the ground that I got the decision wrong.
Click to expand...

Development point: take your time.
This could have been avoided by taking a second to observe what the players do before making / signalling a decision especially useful when you aren't sure.

If they are all looking at you and they don't know, you can go defensive and say look you guys don't know, I don't either. I'm going safe and giving a GK.

The other option is, if you give a corner and you aren't sure is to find a foul somewhere.
I had a game recently where my AR gave a foul in a almost corner position, I didn't think it was, or at least it didn't meet my threshold. So I supported him with the free kick. And within a matter of a few seconds I had blown for a defensive free kick.
And within a few seconds after that it was all forgotten about.

halter42 said:
I think it is hard to sell changing a decision if you are alone or not in contact with your assistant. If I were to change my mind, I would go over to my assistant and pretend to discuss with him about it and then change my decision. Of course not possible without an assistant.
Also, if in doubt, I would give a goal kick over a corner, to prevent what unluckily happened to you. If in doubt, also with throw ins, I would give it to the defending team. It's called safe refereeing and will save you some trouble. Some referees exaggerate with safe refereeing and give very soft fouls to the defenders whenever possible.
I rememeber A. Taylor once gave a corner and from the reaction he knew he made a mistake. The corner is taken and before the ball reaches the middle, he whistles for a 'attacking foul'. Even the commentators had a chuckle about the ghost foul :D (the camera even zoomed in on him^^)
Click to expand...
Nice. I'd throw my assistant under the bus is what that loosely translates too 😂
 
As One says, give yourself a bit more thinking time. If you're not sure what way to go then often players will tell you by their body language. If you have a team which always scream for every decision, even the blatant ones the other way, then don't go by their reaction but by the opposition. If both teams are like it then you need to referee more strongly, pick a direction and go with it whatever.

If it's a goal kick / corner kick situation then the GK is the safer option. Players won't remember a dodgy goal kick, but they will certainly remember a dodgy corner leading to the winning goal.

I certainly wouldn't be telling them "I wasn't sure so I gave a goal kick but players' body language persuaded me to change my mind!" From that point on every player on the field will be going to get every ball, including both goalkeepers!
 
JamesL said:
Development point: take your time.
This could have been avoided by taking a second to observe what the players do before making / signalling a decision especially useful when you aren't sure.

If they are all looking at you and they don't know, you can go defensive and say look you guys don't know, I don't either. I'm going safe and giving a GK.

The other option is, if you give a corner and you aren't sure is to find a foul somewhere.
I had a game recently where my AR gave a foul in a almost corner position, I didn't think it was, or at least it didn't meet my threshold. So I supported him with the free kick. And within a matter of a few seconds I had blown for a defensive free kick.
And within a few seconds after that it was all forgotten about.


Nice. I'd throw my assistant under the bus is what that loosely translates too 😂
Click to expand...

100%


Sadly for the op, this is the exact situation where managment of the bigger picture trumps managing a minor isolated call.

Big picture always wins.

Getting ' unlucky' from the resulting corner does not wash, you make your own luck. On the incident in question, the referee has went from a safe call, to, spinning the roulette wheel....where it stops, nobody knows...

If you must give the corner, find a foul, blow, run away, pointing at red 5 ' red 5, pushing'

as others have said, your incorrect gk is forgotten about by the time its been taken, instead, the correct corner kick is the constant memory of the game
 
Just what everyone else said - take your time - 99% of these decisions, especially at youth level, are refereed by the players themselves. Just take a few seconds and wait it out.

I have had it a few times where I’ve signalled for something but not shouted because I wasn’t sure and the players movement has told me I was wrong. Luckily the players normally don’t notice you’re wrong if it’s an obvious one you’ve missed and you can quickly save yourself. I think I’ve been caught out by a player twice, both U16s, once which undermined my match control (I changed corner to goal kick) and the other which I’m more fond of. I pointed for a goal kick earlier on in the game and a gobby captain, who for all of the 5 minutes so far had been extremely annoying, was astounded by my call. I explained my decision and a quick warning him of his dissent so far as he came past me and then as we looked up, his team were setting up for a corner. I said he might be right actually, joked with him about it, and he was sound with me for the rest of the game.

I got lucky with mine really, you got the nightmare scenario. But do what I did, and learn to take your time.
 
Thanks folks.

I get the point about "finding a foul", but I think this is somewhat of a cop out - its basically saying (privately) that one team won a corner but because I messed up the call as a referee but corrected myself, I will unfairly penalise the team who won the corner. Seems very harsh. Anyway, there was nothing even close to a foul I could have called in this situation.
 
Macca said:
Thanks folks.

I get the point about "finding a foul", but I think this is somewhat of a cop out - its basically saying (privately) that one team won a corner but because I messed up the call as a referee but corrected myself, I will unfairly penalise the team who won the corner. Seems very harsh. Anyway, there was nothing even close to a foul I could have called in this situation.
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Think you may have misunderstood the advice.

1) take your time so you don't have to correct yourself.
2) if you give a corner and know/feel it Might well have been a GK then you find a foul.

In your situation once you had. Over ruled yourself I'm. Not advocating you find a foul in the OP. That's what advice 1 is for to not get in that sticky wicket in first place.
 
Not a fan of inventing a foul at a “dodgy” corner, but if you look hard enough…
 
Don't let teams/coaches scream/appeal for every decision it will always escalate, and you'll get accused of going on the shouts by the other team, regardless of previous decisions.
Waiting advice doesn't really work as well for teams like this, as they'll act as if nearly every ball out of play is there's.
 
Others have said it, but taking your time is the key thing here, as long as you aren't doing it for every decision there is nothing wrong with taking your time.

If you do change your mind never say you did it based on the reaction of players, you are throwing yourself under the bus there. Either say nothing, or say that you have processed it again in your mind and realised you got it wrong, perhaps you forgot who was kicking which direction (although tricky to sell that after 90 minutes).

Also think of this. If you had stuck with the original decision would anyone have been talking about you after the game? Perhaps, for about 5 minutes. After you changed your decision and a goal came from it you can be sure that they will be talking about you for a lot longer and possibly even in future games. In the last minute of the game and with one goal in it I would be sticking with my original decision, even if player reaction told me it was wrong.
 
OIREF! said:
Not something I'm keen on either - just end up getting flack for 2 dodgy decisions. Still, sometimes self preservation takes over!
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i'm not keen either. but finding a dodgy fk and getting a bit of flak is better than the flak if the free kick / corner results in a goal! trust me!
 
I've had this happen before a few times, and each time I have gotten away with it by looking at the AR (mainly if it's CAR) and saying 'what, corner? Ok, thank you!' even though they haven't seen it. I can't believe I keep getting away with it to be honest!
 
In a game last season, I’ve signalled for a GK, CAR signalling for a corner. I umm and ahh, before giving the corner and thanking the CAR for his honesty. Corner comes in, Goal!!!…. I casually jog back for the restart whilst watching the CAR getting pelters from his teammates
 
I had this today! Gave the corner but then it was obvious I’d got it wrong from reactions so I changed my mind and said “I knew it came off red guys I just forgot which way the teams were playing! My bad I signalled the wrong thing”

Everyone accepted it
 
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