A&H

Club Marks

WilliamD

WilliamD

Well-Known Member
Level 4 Referee
Just got the banding for second half of the season. Extremely disappointing. In a season where I was promoted to 5 with two above standard observations I am in the bottom band for club marks. Granted it's only over 10 games as it was a Step 6 league I only joined in September and the marking period is March 18-April 19. There were three tasty games with red cards and bench dismissals so that would no doubt massively swing the average given the low number of games...

But in the interest of improving and understanding I'm curious how those of you who finish high with observers and high with clubs manage to do it. I'm left feeling like if I referee "properly" and issue the red cards and manage the benches appropriately, I'm doomed for club marks. There will be those on here who will say, and have said, that club marks are not important - but they are in reality. They impact assignments, they impact promotion etc. Curious how the more experienced refs on here manage to get good club marks and make the tough refereeing decisions.
 
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Just sounds like a statistical anomaly to me, based on the low game count
Your posts on here are always sensible, so i'm betting you've done little wrong
Do they use the arithmetic mean when determining bandings? Median is far more apt for such assessments, but i doubt the football world is aware of this. The great thing about median, is that it takes around a sample of six marks to become meaningful. Thereafter, it takes a sustained run of good or bad performances to significantly budge it, making it deterministic of genuine improvement
Also, below a minimum number of games (three to six), the banding is meaningless
@RefJef any thoughts?
 
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You know that last minute penalty you gave which stopped the team just outside the relegation spots climbing to safety. You know that yellow card you gave to the star striker in that nothing league game, that was his 5th and earned him a one match suspension which means he misses a cup final. You know that goal kick you gave in the 80th minute that the other team said was a corner, it led to the winning goal in a local derby.

Each and any of the above could have seen a respectable 85 from a club drop to a 61. Don't worry about club marks. You have achieved this season's objective of being promoted. Move forward. You may be on a different league next season, worry about how they mark, not how you have been marked in the past.
 
Sadly club marks are important. They count towards cup finals and top of the league appointments.

We had a league meeting (curry night|) in March where a selection of referees' club marks were discussed. The secretary asked "cup game; X rovers v Y united - home team awarded 90, away team awarded 60. Why was that PP62?" I replied "probably because I sent off 2 of Y united's players".
Y united's chairman was sat on our table so I had a conversation with him about this. He wasn't at this particular game and had been told that one of the red cards was mistaken identity. I clarified that it most certainly wasn't as it was for 2 yellows and when I checked on Full Time later in the week I saw that this particular player had played 12 matches and received 3 yellows and 3 reds! He changed the subject rather quickly after that.

I refereed another game in the same division where I was given a low mark. The away team won 3-0 and went top of the league. I had a good game that day including a good advantage which lead to the first goal. In 85th minute the away team centre half committed his first foul of the day so I blew my whistle for the free kick. That was all, no need to make a fuss. However, the player turned round, looked at me and shouted "f*** off". I'm not too fussed about a bit of industrial language and used a bit of empathy. I told him that as I was in a good mood he was getting a yellow card for his outburst. He shouted "oh, f*** off"! Obviously this changed my thoughts and I sent him off. The secretary came into my changing room later for a chat and said he was annoyed that his best player was going to miss the biggest game of the season next week because I had sent him off. I was somewhat unprofessional following this and launched into a rant about how was that my fault, why should referees have to put up with behaviour like that, I've driven 35 miles each way to be spoken to like that and I finished up with "you've not even mentioned my great advantage for you first goal!". I guess I didn't expect a good mark after that but I felt better for getting it off my chest!!!
 
I've never ever seen or been made aware of my club marks in the 8 seasons I've been reffing. I'm not interested in the slightest.

Why it should make any difference to a referee or an appointments secretary what a bunch of people who can't ever really be objective and who know very little about the LOTG anyway, think about their referee on a particular day is frankly, beyond me.

We've had more than one or two threads on the subject and validity of Club Marks at Grass Roots level on here before and I still haven't changed my opinion on them in as much as I think they're hardly worth the paper they're written on. Or at least they shouldn't be. :cool:
 
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I have the same problem as you mate. Since promotion to level 4 I have finished respectably in observers and struggled with clubs (B/D, C/E, A/C). I am coming to the realisation that maybe clubs don't like my style. So I need to somehow change that up but not lose substance. I think number of games weigh heavily. Until recently I probably haven't done as many middles as some other refs as I wasn't available every Saturday or every weekday so I was heavily weighted to lines as the closed dates invariably lead to less middles with lines being allocated first.

Brian Hamilton said:
You know that last minute penalty you gave which stopped the team just outside the relegation spots climbing to safety. You know that yellow card you gave to the star striker in that nothing league game, that was his 5th and earned him a one match suspension which means he misses a cup final. You know that goal kick you gave in the 80th minute that the other team said was a corner, it led to the winning goal in a local derby.

Each and any of the above could have seen a respectable 85 from a club drop to a 61. Don't worry about club marks. You have achieved this season's objective of being promoted. Move forward. You may be on a different league next season, worry about how they mark, not how you have been marked in the past.
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Conversely that penalty you didn't give and the yellow card you didn't give can lead to the opposition dropping their marks so sometimes in a lose lose. Its a fine balance. 1 I have yet to strike.
 
JamesL said:
I have the same problem as you mate. Since promotion to level 4 I have finished respectably in observers and struggled with clubs (B/D, C/E, A/C). I am coming to the realisation that maybe clubs don't like my style. So I need to somehow change that up but not lose substance. I think number of games weigh heavily. Until recently I probably haven't done as many middles as some other refs as I wasn't available every Saturday or every weekday so I was heavily weighted to lines as the closed dates invariably lead to less middles with lines being allocated first.
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The issue at 4 can be down to others playing politics or even your appearance.
Also have to factor in that some clubs mark higher in general and there are others you need to avoid no matter what you have done in the game.
My biggest fear before promotion was finishing AD/AE and going nowhere.
Incidentally, that happened to an individual this year.

Club marks can also be fractional with the difference between top of A and bottom of B just 1 mark.

Below level 4, if it’s simply cup finals that are the desired outcome, surely achieving level 5 and communicating with the appointment Secretary is all that’s required.
 
Just sent off an under 13 in a cup final for SFP. I guess I am getting a low mark. But the decision was the easiest red card . Would have ben crucified if I had gone yellow. Lots of county officials watching although that made no difference to my reasoning. Red in any game.
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Do your job and sod their marks, they’re irrelevant, they’re totally not impartial to the job you’ve just done. In fact the better job you do, especially in the discipline side the worse you’ll get...go figure
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All good and well but if you are shooting for the next level that attitude just won't cut it. Like it or not, club marks are part of the process and all the best referees in the country will have once been in the same position. To be the best you have to impress both the observers and the clubs and of course get a little luck with appointments along the way.
 
I don’t regret any of my circa 100 red cards, if anything, I mellowed as time went by and they behaved better too. Early days was a car crash as the Mike Dean of local football clashed with the local Neanderthal community. Never found out any of my club marks, didn’t care then, don’t care now. I was paid to do a job and certain idiots got in my way in doing it.
I got some lovely messages when I finished from some quiet sources appreciative of my stand up to these thugs and louts who were spoiling it for the many but were too nervous to say anything out loud.
 
I've said this before, but certainly at supply league and above you are more likely to lose club marks for not sending off than you are for sending a player off, assuming of course the decision isn't horrendously wrong. When I went up from 4 to 3 I had almost as many red cards as games refereed and still finished top on clubs. You are more likely to get hammered if you don't use your cards and that leads to a loss of control, especially if that subsequently leads to cards that could and probably should have been avoided.

A bit different at lower levels but the same principles apply. If the first act of dissent draws a caution you are likely to get marked down unless it is blatant, whereas if you have previously made it clear to players that you won't accept those actions it is more likely to be accepted. Set players up for a fall, so that when the cards do come out everyone looks at it and thinks "yes, he deserved that".

Also remember that off field actions can cost you marks, arguably more than what you do on the green stuff. Club secretaries are busy people, usually with full time jobs, so if they have to spend time chasing you for confirmation their first impression of you is irreparably damaged. On match day the manager wants to be warming his team up, or himself if he is player manager, he doesn't want to be trying to find his phone because it is 5 minutes to kick off and there is no sign of the referee. This should be obvious, but you'd be amazed how many referees don't realise it. Think of it as similar to an interview, you are essentially being marked based on your overall performance. If you turn up late, or turn up looking dishevelled, that mark you are getting from the interviewing panel will almost certainly have been influenced before you even open your mouth, refereeing is no different.

I've held just about every role in football - player, captain, coach, manager, referee, league official, RefsSec, CFA council, RefsComm, etc. I know all about club marks as I have seen it from all sides of the fence. There are some exceptions, but club marks are rarely vastly different from observer marks. It certainly isn't perfect, but it won't be going away so you need to learn how to protect your club marks whilst not compromising on applying the laws.
 
I don’t know the marking system at such lofty levels,but I’m assuming that the two letters refer to observer grading and club marks? So AB means in you are in the top band (quarter or fifth? Do the letters go down to D or E) based on observer assessments and the B is the band for club marks?

If club marks are to be valid, we would expect them to be close to observer marks.

It would be fairly simple to do some statistical analysis (I might suggest Spearman Rank as a useful tool in this situation) to see if there is any correlation between observers & club marks.

If not, (I.e. no correlation) then one should be discarded, and given we should expect consistency from observers the validity of club marks would be called into question.
 
RefJef said:
I don’t know the marking system at such lofty levels,but I’m assuming that the two letters refer to observer grading and club marks? So AB means in you are in the top band (quarter or fifth? Do the letters go down to D or E) based on observer assessments and the B is the band for club marks?
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Yep, at L4 each 20% is in band A to E for each of observers and clubs.
 
I'm so glad I don't have to worry about that nonsense. I'm sure I would have been roasted by the winning team in a recent semi-final, as I cautioned two players who hit YC accumulation and got to miss the final. (But why oh why was a player winning by two goals, a yellow shy of a suspension, continuing to argue about a routine fouls at midfield with only a few minutes left in the game and the result not in doubt?? I guess the answer is hes' a teenager . . . .)
 
Imagine you’ve just booked 8 reds and yellows in a tasty cup final, the game is decided by you giving a perfectly good onside goal in your eyes and 11+ 1 are calling it offside.... Where do your impartial club marks start? 10, he’s had a stormer or 1, he’s cost us a cup final and we’ll show the ****.
 
This is a great discussion. For those at L5 who want to get to L4 and beyond, learning about club marks now is important. Happy at L5-7? Then club marks are largely irrelevant.

One thing to mention is that club marks are 'double' if you like, so in the event of one team being unhappy as per the post above, the other is likely to offset that. You can't shy away from unpopular decisions as it's likely you'll get two lots of poor club marks. Clubs at these levels, as Rusty says, are not stupid and do expect you to uphold the LotG even if it disadvantages them.

For those that struggle with club marks, I would ask you to consider the entire match day experience and analyse where you can do better. It's not just 90 minutes on the pitch, you also need to be honest and approachable post-match, act with humility and be willing to explain why you made decisions should the need arise. Clearly there are times when this is not a good idea, but that's a judgement thing but generally in the boardroom/bar after a game can be a good time to raise your profile a little in the eyes of the club.
 
RustyRef said:
I've said this before, but certainly at supply league and above you are more likely to lose club marks for not sending off than you are for sending a player off, assuming of course the decision isn't horrendously wrong. When I went up from 4 to 3 I had almost as many red cards as games refereed and still finished top on clubs. You are more likely to get hammered if you don't use your cards and that leads to a loss of control, especially if that subsequently leads to cards that could and probably should have been avoided.

A bit different at lower levels but the same principles apply. If the first act of dissent draws a caution you are likely to get marked down unless it is blatant, whereas if you have previously made it clear to players that you won't accept those actions it is more likely to be accepted. Set players up for a fall, so that when the cards do come out everyone looks at it and thinks "yes, he deserved that".

Also remember that off field actions can cost you marks, arguably more than what you do on the green stuff. Club secretaries are busy people, usually with full time jobs, so if they have to spend time chasing you for confirmation their first impression of you is irreparably damaged. On match day the manager wants to be warming his team up, or himself if he is player manager, he doesn't want to be trying to find his phone because it is 5 minutes to kick off and there is no sign of the referee. This should be obvious, but you'd be amazed how many referees don't realise it. Think of it as similar to an interview, you are essentially being marked based on your overall performance. If you turn up late, or turn up looking dishevelled, that mark you are getting from the interviewing panel will almost certainly have been influenced before you even open your mouth, refereeing is no different.

I've held just about every role in football - player, captain, coach, manager, referee, league official, RefsSec, CFA council, RefsComm, etc. I know all about club marks as I have seen it from all sides of the fence. There are some exceptions, but club marks are rarely vastly different from observer marks. It certainly isn't perfect, but it won't be going away so you need to learn how to protect your club marks whilst not compromising on applying the laws.
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very helpful. thanks.

I'm pretty conscious of and diligent with the off field stuff as I know that can have an impact - as in other parts of life. I didn't mention in the OP that I'm going for 4 this year so that's my driver to try to understand and improve them...As @Monotone Whistle said those happy 7-5 can relax and ignore this, but for anyone going for 4 and above club marks are a reality we need to live with and manage. I'm not going to over think it as it is a low number of games for the calculation but I'm sure I can improve on them with some of the tips on here.
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Imagine you’ve just booked 8 reds and yellows in a tasty cup final, the game is decided by you giving a perfectly good onside goal in your eyes and 11+ 1 are calling it offside.... Where do your impartial club marks start? 10, he’s had a stormer or 1, he’s cost us a cup final and we’ll show the ****.
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And once again, you've stuck your nose into a promotion discussion, despite having no experience of how the promotion scheme works...

At levels 7-5, club marks should be irrelevant - as long as you have the required observations, they count for absolutely nothing.

And once you're pushing for level 4, the conditions under which you're marked will change. Often it won't be the manager marking, it will be a (relatively) dispassionate secretary or chairman filling out the paperwork. There's a much greater emphasis on protecting players, and a much greater awareness of the law from the teams than you'll be used to as an L7. And like it or not, it does matter how you behave and come across pre-and-post match, but given you're always going to have to interact with club officials if you climb the ladder, I don't see why that would be a bad thing to count as part of an overall assessment?

Also, minor detail: club marks are 1-100, not 1-10. If you're going to charge in with a strong opinion, it might be an idea to at least try and look like you know what you're talking about.....
 
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